30.06?

[toby]

Getcha some excitement- 257 Weatherby

[6mmintl]

If you talk to some of the guys in the semi-auto forum I believe you will be told nothing better then a Remington 740/760, or 7400 or 7600 in 3006 to reach out to that magic 1000 yd. mark.

You wont see any sub caliber hunting rounds do that.

[LynnJr]

Kestryl
I don't usually debate ballistics and from reading this post one would think the 308 is some kind of magic round.
It is not.
The 308 was brought out because the average soldier of today isn't the same person as the average soldier of times gone by.
As you already know that same trend produced the 223 so the average soldier of today wouldn't get a bruisebruise and seek cosmetic surgery during a time of war.
Judging by today's youth the 14 Flea will soon become our next combat round.

[GJC]

Judging by today's youth the 14 Flea will soon become our next combat round.

That is funny as hell and sad at the same time. 14 Flea lol

[6mmintl]

I would have to disagree that the .223 was selected to stop shoulder bruising for the new recruits of the 60's.

Having seen the shock effect of NVA being hit at 100 yds and closer ranges I would op for the 5.56 for stopping power for non body armor targets out of the older 55 gr. in 1x10/12" twist rifles.

Beyond 300 yds. and to 900 yds. the 308 is king.

The 3006 is king at all ranges out to and beyond 1000 yds.

[BillyGoatCrawler]

The 308 was brought out because the average soldier of today isn't the same person as the average soldier of times gone by.
As you already know that same trend produced the 223 so the average soldier of today wouldn't get a bruisebruise and seek cosmetic surgery during a time of war.

Why the **** talk on our soldiers? Were you in the military? Specifically in a grunt role? If you speak so factually, you must have first hand experience. And if you were, you'd know the benefits and frequency of suppression fire in combat. You must understand the rounds expended to body count ratios.

Wars change. In WWII when 30-06 was the common type of round, we were fighting enemies with bolt actions of equivilant rounds. And still the garand was deemed "the greatest battle implement ever devised." That is because it gave a superiority of suppression and follow up shots. Combat is a continuous evolution. Ever thought about how the thompson, mp40, STG44, SVT40, etc were designed in these wars and never went away? The enemy has moved to AK47s and higher volumes of fire compared to the past. We have to match or be ahead of it.

The average infantryman in WWII might have 10-12 garand clips on him. About 100 rounds. The average infantry rifleman today carries 210 rounds minimum by doctrine. Reality is they carry 300+ rounds minimum if they're a rifleman, and even then they're carrying more ammo for the crew served weapons. Mk46 gunners are carrying 600 rounds minimum towards 1000 rounds. But, we also have 2 Mk46 gunners per squad and 2 MK48 per platoon. Overall, that's a whole lot more ammunition and suppression. Modern infantry doctrine depends on small arms kills, but it is also heavily set up to allow other assets such as artillery and close air support to work effectively. Suppression is the key to that.

[BillyGoatCrawler]

I would have to disagree that the .223 was selected to stop shoulder bruising for the new recruits of the 60's.

Having seen the shock effect of NVA being hit at 100 yds and closer ranges I would op for the 5.56 for stopping power for non body armor targets out of the older 55 gr. in 1x10/12" twist rifles.

Beyond 300 yds. and to 900 yds. the 308 is king.

The 3006 is king at all ranges out to and beyond 1000 yds.

To add to this - as I said, modern doctrine is designed to incorporate the massive artillery and close air assets we have. The effective range of the rounds used today were taken into account for defense of the platoon and specifically the platoon leader and his fire support team attached to him. We might get a few more kills at ranges if we had bigger rounds, but if you've been in combat as an infantryman you'd know that the reality of laying eyes directly on the enemy isn't a common thing. But knowing generally where they are and being able to suppress is a daily event. The platoon basically functions of as a close range defense of the PL and the FST. If they platoon can keep them safe, they can direct the heavy casualty producing weapons on what really matters - those areas where you know the enemy is at, but you can't pinpoint.. The areas you've suppressed. Being able to carry 3 times the ammo is much more conducive to this type of combat.

[TMB 1]

The average infantryman in WWII might have 10-12 garand clips on him. About 100 rounds.

If you ever watch actual WWII film footage. You'll see average infantrymen carrying quite a few more than 10 or 12 clips on them.

[BillyGoatCrawler]

If you ever watch actual WWII film footage. You'll see average infantrymen carrying quite a few more than 10 or 12 clips on them.

I can also tell you what the boys in my platoon carried. Or you can watch Restrepo, Korengal, Hornet's Nest or any of the documentaries the area.

I had a M14. I carried 8 loaded 20 round 7.62 mags along with 2 extra boxes of M118 and two grenades. In my assault pack I carried 1-3 belts of 7.62 link depending how long the operation plan was. Add in radios and squad gear plus water and rations.
Here's a pic of my load out:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c121/DaveStandish/blah019.jpg

But you know, I had a M14 because 30-06 would have bruised my shoulder he says.

[LynnJr]

Why the **** talk on our soldiers? Were you in the military? Specifically in a grunt role? If you speak so factually, you must have first hand experience. And if you were, you'd know the benefits and frequency of suppression fire in combat. You must understand the rounds expended to body count ratios.

Wars change. In WWII when 30-06 was the common type of round, we were fighting enemies with bolt actions of equivilant rounds. And still the garand was deemed "the greatest battle implement ever devised." That is because it gave a superiority of suppression and follow up shots. Combat is a continuous evolution. Ever thought about how the thompson, mp40, STG44, SVT40, etc were designed in these wars and never went away? The enemy has moved to AK47s and higher volumes of fire compared to the past. We have to match or be ahead of it.

The average infantryman in WWII might have 10-12 garand clips on him. About 100 rounds. The average infantry rifleman today carries 210 rounds minimum by doctrine. Reality is they carry 300+ rounds minimum if they're a rifleman, and even then they're carrying more ammo for the crew served weapons. Mk46 gunners are carrying 600 rounds minimum towards 1000 rounds. But, we also have 2 Mk46 gunners per squad and 2 MK48 per platoon. Overall, that's a whole lot more ammunition and suppression. Modern infantry doctrine depends on small arms kills, but it is also heavily set up to allow other assets such as artillery and close air support to work effectively. Suppression is the key to that.

No ****Talk at all the military wanted to lay down more rounds and the troops needed an easier cartridge to handle that role.

From Small Arms of the World, 12th Edition:

On May 1, 1957, the U.S. Army adopted the experimental T44E4 as the U.S. Rifle, 7.62mm (.308), M14. A heavy barrel version, T44E5, was also adopted as the M15, but was never produced in quantity and declared obsolete on December 17, 1959. Another vesion, the M14A1, was designed to overcome problems associated with the M14 -- (1) excessive dispersion of bullets, even when fired by an expert marksman; (2) excessive recoil; and (3) muzzle climb. The new design included an in-line stock, front and rear pistol grips, and a recoil brake that fastened over the standard flash hider. Combined, these elements made the rifle more manageable during automatic fire. Manufacture of the M14 was terminated by Robert S. McNamara, U.S. Secretary of Defense, in 1963.


No emotion just facts.

[BillyGoatCrawler]

Small arms of the world left out the tone of condescension. How tasteful of them.

[Wrangler John]

The Hornady reloading manual is conservative on their max charges, but I wouldn't consider the two cartridges "splitting hairs" in difference.

It lists .308 shooting a 178gr at 2500 fps as max
.30-06 shooting a 178 gr at 2700 max and shooting a 220 gr at 2500 fps.

Those are conservative numbers for both, but .30-06 is launching almost a 25% heavier bullet at the same velocity.

Given that a 175 SMK has a bc of .496 and the 220 SMK's BC is .629, it's making me pretty interested in taking my Howa out for some LR fun over my .308

Please note that I never referred to the Hornady Manual, rather the NOSLER Manual #6 (I'd have used Nosler's Manual #7, but I was too lazy to boot the PC it's on). I know, it's just a simple mistake. I do the same thing; when thinking of Stockton I often say Fresno. The differences I mentioned as splitting hairs refers to the practical differences between the effect on game animals at reasonable hunting ranges (the example being 500 yards). The fact remains, as you note, that the .30-06 Springfield is the more flexible of the two cartridges for the reasons we discussed, with such flexibility being enhanced by new progressive burning powders. Have long range fun.

[cannon]

Why the **** talk on our soldiers? Were you in the military? Specifically in a grunt role? If you speak so factually, you must have first hand experience. And if you were, you'd know the benefits and frequency of suppression fire in combat. You must understand the rounds expended to body count ratios.

Wars change. In WWII when 30-06 was the common type of round, we were fighting enemies with bolt actions of equivilant rounds. And still the garand was deemed "the greatest battle implement ever devised." That is because it gave a superiority of suppression and follow up shots. Combat is a continuous evolution. Ever thought about how the thompson, mp40, STG44, SVT40, etc were designed in these wars and never went away? The enemy has moved to AK47s and higher volumes of fire compared to the past. We have to match or be ahead of it.

The average infantryman in WWII might have 10-12 garand clips on him. About 100 rounds. The average infantry rifleman today carries 210 rounds minimum by doctrine. Reality is they carry 300+ rounds minimum if they're a rifleman, and even then they're carrying more ammo for the crew served weapons. Mk46 gunners are carrying 600 rounds minimum towards 1000 rounds. But, we also have 2 Mk46 gunners per squad and 2 MK48 per platoon. Overall, that's a whole lot more ammunition and suppression. Modern infantry doctrine depends on small arms kills, but it is also heavily set up to allow other assets such as artillery and close air support to work effectively. Suppression is the key to that.

Don't get too wound up over this. Remember in WWII they came out with the 30 carbine because many soldiers could not accurately handle the 45acp.

The military needs to provide arms the average soldier can effectively use and that match the doctrine of operations.

5.56 came out because the doctrine changed from everybody is a marksmen to suppressive/high volume fire. The 5.56 allowed the soldier to carry more rounds for the same weight and has great wound characteristics.

Heck, even back before WWII Army management didn't like the concept of the Garand because they thought soldiers would waste ammo blasting away instead of aimed accurate fire.

[LynnJr]

Small arms of the world left out the tone of condescension. How tasteful of them.

There was no tone of condensation because they just report the facts and leave out all the emotion..
In days gone by people walked or rode horses from point A to point B. Today the vast majority use alternative methods for transportation. That is not condensation it is fact no matter what you read on the internet.

[gunafficionado]

What he said....

The 30-06 is better when using heaver bullets(165 gr+) in bolt action rifles.