LEM? Interesting conversation

[majtom94]

So at range and in a conversation, looking at our guns and this person says try this HK P2000sk.

Dry fired the trigger - its very light. Really light. Two lbs or so. Said it was law enforcement modification. I say nothing, but think on the way home.

1) Would a lighten trigger be a liability in an officer involved shooting?

2) Was he BSing me about LEM?

[kielbasavw]

It gives you a light doa trigger. Its real. Search it

[SilverTauron]

So at range and in a conversation, looking at our guns and this person says try this HK P2000sk.

Dry fired the trigger - its very light. Really light. Two lbs or so. Said it was law enforcement modification. I say nothing, but think on the way home.

1) Would a lighten trigger be a liability in an officer involved shooting?

2) Was he BSing me about LEM?

The liability angle with regard to police has to do with the 'cocked hammer' shibboleth.Namely a shady attorney will say that instead of an officer deliberately acting in self defense,they 'negligently' fired a weapon after cocking the hammer.With the LEM pistols they're equipped with spurred hammers ,deleting that dodgy bull.

As such the trigger pull weight is only ancillary,and on HK pistols the LEM trigger can be as low as 4.5lbs with the right springs.The one I owned had a V2 7.5lb pull,which I thought was serviceable for defensive uses.

[Grayblue]

LEM does stand for Law Enforcement Modification.

But, to my knowledge HK LEM does not come with 2 lb standard. There is a 4 lb.

It can be a liability if it is too light. However, resistance that is enough to make the shooter feel that one is deliberately pulling the trigger would be good. Anything more higher in resistance than that only means higher chances of miss. The reason is that it is not possible to prevent accidental discharge by high resistance trigger without suffering accuracy because human is capable of jerking through very heavy trigger when startled. So, those trigger will still not prevent all accidents. Even though it may lower the accident by making the pull difficult, it increases the liability of missed shots and increases the possiblity of user's death when a threat is not hit.

[kielbasavw]

There is also a light lem

[Cyc Wid It]

If I bought another HK, I would go with a light lem + Bruce Gray package.

[9mmepiphany]

its very light. Really light. Two lbs or so.

1) Would a lighten trigger be a liability in an officer involved shooting?

I very much doubt it was two pounds, I don't think there is enough leverage it the action to get down that low. Smoothness is often mistaken for lighter weight in the trigger stroke

Said it was law enforcement modification

2) Was he BSing me about LEM?

Nope, that is what LEM stands for

[INFAMOUS762X39]

I actually got to try out a HK P2000SK last week. I believe it was a V3, which is DA/SA.

I am quite surprised how well I shot with that thing, dead on accurate.

[IVC]

With the LEM pistols they're equipped with spurred hammers ...

I believe you meant "smooth." LEM hammers can still be cocked if you start the trigger pull, but you couldn't do it with just fingers and without touching the trigger. It's because they are smooth and are close to flush with the back of the slide.

[IVC]

2) Was he BSing me about LEM?

I've converted a V1 (standard SA/DA) HK 45C to LEM just recently, so here are the details.

The conversion consists of changing hammer with a new one that is smooth and contains a "cocking piece," then replacing some springs. There are three springs that matter: (1) HS - hammer spring (in the back of the grip), (2) TRS - trigger reset spring (just above the trigger, a bear to manipulate), and (3) FPBS - firing pin block spring (on the bottom of the slide, when pushed in allows firing pin to strike).

The main weight during the first stage of LEM comes from TRS, with a bit of help from FPBS. The HS comes to play in the second stage as the gun is fired. Light TRS takes off around 2 lb off the pull and light FPBS takes off another 1 lb. I didn't like light TRS as trigger was slugish on reset, so I put in the heavy one and it works like a charm. Almost identical to my factory P2000 SK LEM (slightly lighter because of other springs).

Factory LEM is almost always "heavy LEM" - you have to do it yourself if you want the "light" version.

Check out www.hkpro.com forum for infinite amount of all possible scenarios.

[Knomad]

It's not two pounds. There are several LEM variants though.

The only P2000sk LEM that's on roster in CA is the v2, which is sort of a "medium" LEM. I believe it's in the range of 7 lbs out of the box, although there's some minor gun to gun variation and as with many triggers, it will smooth out and lighten up just a bit with use.

The v1 is the "light" LEM, and it's in the 4.5 to 5 lb range. You won't find them any lighter than that unless it's been to a gunsmith for more work, and I'm not sure I'd want one any lighter than that anyway.

There's also a "heavy" LEM (never tried one, never even seen one), and of course the DA/SA version which is the v3 for the SK. Note that the v# isn't necessarily the same among different HK models, the ones above are for the P2000 and P2000sk.

The difference between the v1 and v2 is the firing pin block spring and the trigger return spring. Swap only the FPBS, and you get an in-between trigger that's about 6-6.5 lbs.

Lots more info on all this in the reference library over at hkpro.com

For those not familiar, the LEM is a same-pull-every-time trigger with a long, very light takeup, a distinct wall, and then a short, slightly heavier pull. If you're familiar with a two-stage AR15 trigger it feels similar, except on the HK the light takeup pull is longer.

Some people take to it immediately, I love it and took perhaps an hour to acclimate to it. Some people seem to struggle with it, not really sure why.

I think it's an excellent choice for CCW or tactical-type training. For punching bullseyes at the range the DA/SA might be a better choice.

The P2000sk is an excellent gun, extremely reliable and surprisingly accurate for a small gun. It's slightly larger than a Glock 26, I can get two and a half fingers on the P2000sk grip with the flat mag baseplates, or a slightly squished three fingers with the stock baseplates; but only two fingers on a G26. In spite of this the P2000sk is much easier to conceal (at least for me) because of the slide design which narrows towards the top and is much less blocky and angular.

Since the CA DOJ approved v2 is about 1.5 lb heavier pull than some very popular striker fired guns, and the long takeup and the visible hammer arguably make a ND less likely to occur, I think the v2 is pretty safe from a liability standpoint. Now if you choose to convert it to v1, there are differences of opinion on whether that would raise the liability risk.

[IVC]

For those not familiar, the LEM is a same-pull-every-time trigger with a long, very light takeup, a distinct wall, and then a short, slightly heavier pull. If you're familair with a two-stage AR15 trigger it feels similar, except on the HK the light takeup pull is longer.

To add to it, it works that way only when it's "pre-cocked." When the gun is dry fired or when there is an FTF, the second strike capability is there (unlike Glocks, XD-s, etc.), but the pull is *very* heavy.

Normal operating procedure, though, is to chamber a round (pre-cocked), empty the magazine, slide remains open after the last round (again, pre-cocked), so next magazine can be inserted, slide dropped and it's still "light pull." In that respect it *is* "a same-pull-every-time trigger." Just remember that second strike is quite different and very obviously heavy.

[RoundEye]

Interesting...

I don't want to go LEM, but I would love to lighten up my DA pull to about 5lbs or so leaving the SA pull as is. I have been meaning to meet with Bruce Gray the next time I am in CO to do his shorter reset work.

[IVC]

I don't want to go LEM, but I would love to lighten up my DA pull to about 5lbs or so leaving the SA pull as is.

Let us know if you can do it and whether you like it. The proper DA pull in LEM is far, far away from 5 lb in any configuration (it's the pre-cocked pull that can be light).

It might be fun to get what you're doing on the full size HK 45 V1, though.

[RoundEye]

Let us know if you can do it and whether you like it. The proper DA pull in LEM is far, far away from 5 lb in any configuration (it's the pre-cocked pull that can be light).

It might be fun to get what you're doing on the full size HK 45 V1, though.

Will do!

The 1st DA pull of ~8lbs or so is just horrible especially when you compare it to the likes of a striker fired pistol. I love P2K, and would love to be able to compete with a GLOCK on the first pull.