Carrying with an empty chamber...

[bwiese]

carrying with an empty chamber is a good option (especially where single actions AND glocks are concerned)?

Um, many modern single-action revolvers (certainly post-1973 Ruger Blackhawks, Single Sixes, etc - as well as earlier models with the factory transfer bar retrofit) do NOT need to be carried with an empty chamber.

There is no chance energy/motion can be coupled to these guns' firing pins- even if hammer physically breaks when dropped.

[RANGER295]

I'm glad I don't shoot whatever match that is...
We rarely have to single-hand reload, but it's good to know that I CAN do it.

And this is a reload during shooting, not after drawing from the belt.

[ar15barrels]

I think you just have to start with an empty weapon on your belt and your mags on your belt.

It's a pretty sad club that does not allow loaded guns in the holster for a match.

[Mute]

Here's a pro showing you how. Please do not attempt this at home or anywhere bystanders not running for the Darwin award are present.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHdDcBOqTys

The point isn't whether a person can efficiently chamber a round into a gun one handed. Many people practice this and can do the same thing. Now try doing this while you're fending off some guy who's attacking you and you need to draw to retention and shoot him instantly. Would you rather do that with a gun that already has a round chambered, or would you rather attempt to do the one-handed loading skill while you're deploying your gun?

[DesertGunner]

Then what happens if you pull the trigger and the thing doesn't fire, so you rack the slide, clear the chamber, load another round and fire again. This time, everything works.

What are you arguing for? It sounds like you are trying to say that the RACK in TAP, RACK, BANG is more than one action. Your argument also applies to "empty pipe carry". What if you draw, rack the slide and there's no bang?

[SVTNate]

If you are in a real nice area and your out to dinner, a round in the chamber or no round in the chamber isn't going to make that much of a difference, you will still have enough time to rack the slide.

You lost me on that one. So, a violent attack in a wealthy area is going to be pre-announced? Time slows down in certain cities? Or, do I get super-human speed? Which is it?

If you're a civilian, and you need a gun, you needed that gun ready the day before, no exceptions. A violent attack will be a surprise, and that's an advantage the BG already has. Your advantages are readiness, awareness, and training.

[JTROKS]

Guys, just disregard my post for one hand cycling the slide. I couldn't type sarcasm all over the darn thing. That move will be hard to do while wearing pajamas or skivvies.

Anyway, just to let you knwo that I prefer keeping one in the chamber with DA autos. 1911s I like them in condition 1. The only reason I have autos for HD now are my little curious boys.

A few years ago I shot IPSC at a club every chance I get. I've never seen a gimmick as one hand reloading except maybe in IDPA, but they are very strict about equipment. Here's another video and this is no joke/sarcasm. This guy is one of the best shooters in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE

[Wulf]

If any part of your "kit" (gun, holster, training, or competence) is not safe and up to the task of carrying hot, you need to fix the problem, not compensate by carrying with an empty chamber.

Its pretty common for a packing newbie to be a little gripped about carrying fully loaded. It goes away pretty quickly.

[FMJBT]

While I can definitely see the benefits of carrying hot, the drawbacks for me are just too many. It's easy to talk macho, but it would only take one instance of a bullet from your own gun carving a trench down the side of your leg, or removing an *** cheek to change a man's perspective. It's never a good idea to completely trust any mechanical safety system, no matter how well proven it may be. On the human side, how many of us have never made any mistakes? You can train and train till everything is imbedded into "muscle memory", but when all is said and done mistakes can still happen. Carrying on an empty chamber just adds one more step that has to be checked off before that mistake can turn into catastrophic failure. Personally, I like having that extra step in the process. And the time required to draw and rack the slide together can't be more than about 1/4 second longer than drawing and flipping off the safety before firing. Under stress, the ability to use very fine motor control, like flipping off a safety, diminishes quite a bit. Racking a slide uses larger muscle groups and requires less dexterity. If you really need to rack one handed, you can always get a long bushing comp (For 1911's) that allows you to just press the comp against a solid object with enough force to rack the slide....



In the event of the "bad guy" getting the jump on you and getting in close before you can draw and rack the slide: In that scenario I'd already be going for a knife. In close quarters, a knife can do nearly as much damage as quickly as a firearm can. Likely, the psychological impact of seeing a drawn blade will make most attackers draw back rather than get in close and get cut up. Drawing a gun in that situation would probably have the opposite effect, the attacker would want to close the distance and get it away from you rather than hold their ground and risk getting shot.

If you train to carry with one in the chamber, that's probably how you should continue to carry. I wouldn't consider those who train and carry on an empty chamber to be at much, if any disadvantage though.

[Sobriquet]

The reason the Israelis taught empty chamber carry is because they used to have a mish mosh of pistols in service and needed a single presentation technique they could teach. Glocks are also very popular in Israel and obviously lack an external safety.

Now that Israel is able to expend more on its military budget, it has been introducing modern pistols into their military and police forces - guns with external safeties. Their police and elite military units now carry with a round in the chamber. People incorrectly equate the "Israeli method" with empty chamber carry rather than their system of instinctive point aiming for CQB.

I once read a quote that said when you're carrying a gun without one in the chamber, you're just carrying an ammo storage device.

IMHO, if you're going to CCW, get trained by a professional, get good reliable equipment, and get a good holster that prevents accidental discharges. Keep the gun in the holster and you won't have a problem. High quality firearms don't go off without pulling the trigger. Period.

My personal comfort level would be to carry with a round chambered, decocked, and the safety on. Under the stress of a situation that actually required you to draw your gun, I'd be concerned about not fully racking the slide or not having enough time to do so.

[DesertGunner]

While I can definitely see the benefits of carrying hot, the drawbacks for me are just too many. It's easy to talk macho, but it would only take one instance of a bullet from your own gun carving a trench down the side of your leg, or removing an *** cheek to change a man's perspective. It's never a good idea to completely trust any mechanical safety system, no matter how well proven it may be. On the human side, how many of us have never made any mistakes? You can train and train till everything is imbedded into "muscle memory", but when all is said and done mistakes can still happen. Carrying on an empty chamber just adds one more step that has to be checked off before that mistake can turn into catastrophic failure.

Anyone who lacks the minimum training, skill and/or practice necessary to carry with one in the chamber should not be carrying in the first place. Quite frankly, I can only see a mishap being caused by HUMAN ERROR. The slightest bit of training will prevent this from being a problem.

[FMJBT]

Anyone who lacks the minimum training, skill and/or practice necessary to carry with one in the chamber should not be carrying in the first place. Quite frankly, I can only see a mishap being caused by HUMAN ERROR. The slightest bit of training will prevent this from being a problem.

For me it boils down to comfort level more than training or skill. I've had plenty of training, and am not exactly unskilled with the practice of carrying. I find it difficult however, to completely trust the mechanical safety of any firearm that is in a cocked condition. All the kinetic energy required to strike the firing pin is already stored in the coiled up spring. This is held in check by two thin faces of highly polished metal about .050" thick butting up against eachother, along with the hope that the grip safety isn't being accidentally depressed by a misplaced strap or fold of clothing...... I guess I'm in the minority here in thinking that the above sounds like a recipe for an accidental discharge.

On a double action pistol like a de cocked USP, I'd be quite comfortable carrying chambered, because the energy required to fire the primer isn't already stored in the pistol. Since I train to rack the slide every time though, I carry it with an empty chamber as well.

Another benefit to this method of carry is that in the unlikely event that the pistol is taken from you and used against you, racking the slide is something the other guy is gonna have to do before the gun will fire. By the time they figure that out, you could probably carve away a fair amount of meat from them with with a knife, which should always be carried as a backup to your firearm.

[Satex]

Anyone who lacks the minimum training, skill and/or practice necessary to carry with one in the chamber should not be carrying in the first place. Quite frankly, I can only see a mishap being caused by HUMAN ERROR. The slightest bit of training will prevent this from being a problem.

Anyone who lacks the minimum training, skill and/or practice necessary to draw and load at the same time should not be carrying in the first place.

[Stormfeather]

The Israelis make this their norm so it works for them.

I was under the impression that this was no longer the practice, and at the time, was just a bandaid fix to them having access to a large variety of firearms with very different manual of arms, so it became a substitute for knowing where all the safeties were.

I carry Israeli.... But I have faster fingers than most.

The only training I've had was from my uncle (actually a long time friend of my pop's). He immigrated to the US in the early eighties from Israel. Since he instilled in me a distaste for external mechanical safeties on weapons, he showed me how to draw and rack auto pistols in one movement. I later learned that this was not his own idea, but a method promoted by the agencies he served under.
I appreciate all the responses and colorful anecdotes. However, I really don't see people practicing the draw, rack, fire technique at the range. In fact at a recent weekend outing I drew some attention and was asked by one of the ROs where I'd learned it.

So, is it just me and two other members who carry Israeli? One other?
Imagine all those Mossad agents surviving op after op while "carrying wrong" according to the rest of you?

As far as the "Israelis do it is must be good" concept goes; different people, different place, different mission. If you want to spend the time training to make that your carry method, its your life...

The IDF doesn't do that anymore from what others have said. I've seen newer training videos where they don't do their round chambering anymore. Trying to remember the forum where I saw it (someone also mentioned the IDF packing without one chambered).

The reason the Israelis taught empty chamber carry is because they used to have a mish mosh of pistols in service and needed a single presentation technique they could teach. Glocks are also very popular in Israel and obviously lack an external safety.
Now that Israel is able to expend more on its military budget, it has been introducing modern pistols into their military and police forces - guns with external safeties. Their police and elite military units now carry with a round in the chamber. People incorrectly equate the "Israeli method" with empty chamber carry rather than their system of instinctive point aiming for CQB.

Ive worked with quite a few Israelis and they all have carried unloaded (not chambered ) and I have to say that Ive always been impressed with their draw/load/fire skillset. I know some folks here say that economy of movement dictates carrying loaded is faster than unloaded, but then again, how many of you have seen an israeli draw and shoot? I have been practicing it for three years now, and its the main way that I CCW. What works for me of course may not work for you, YMMV, so carry however you feel most comfortable carrying, just make sure you can deploy when you need to.

Heres two nice videos showing it in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvbv75gAfrE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohtwS1Tm4c&feature=related

Anyone who lacks the minimum training, skill and/or practice necessary to draw and load at the same time should not be carrying in the first place.

I fully agree 10000%.

[E. Fudd]

For me it boils down to comfort level more than training or skill. I've had plenty of training, and am not exactly unskilled with the practice of carrying. I find it difficult however, to completely trust the mechanical safety of any firearm that is in a cocked condition. All the kinetic energy required to strike the firing pin is already stored in the coiled up spring. This is held in check by two thin faces of highly polished metal about .050" thick butting up against eachother, along with the hope that the grip safety isn't being accidentally depressed by a misplaced strap or fold of clothing...... I guess I'm in the minority here in thinking that the above sounds like a recipe for an accidental discharge.

My $.02...

I've never heard of a stock 1911 carried cocked & locked in a holster with the trigger guard covered, with the manual safety on and a functioning grip safety accidentally discharge in the holster.

I remember Cooper mentioning some elite Mexican LE unit who carried cocked and locked and manual safety off, tucked inside the pants, relying just on the grip safety! But I think that's over doing it... (duh).

True, if you draw or reholster with the safeties off AND your finger on the trigger, you will eventually end up with a new orifice, but that's a training issue. The same could happen while reholstering a DA/SA if the operator fails to decock a pistol in SA mode and holsters with the finger on the trigger...

As far as I know, LEO's who pack 1911's on duty have the chamber loaded (e.g. FBI SWAT, LA SWAT, etc.).

For worse case scenarios, things can go really bad, really fast. Having a 1/4 sec. or so advantage on your side to get the first shot, could make the difference.

Friends who have taken firearms training using force-on-force (e.g. airsoft, Simunitions) have repeatedly stated how surprisingly fast the training 'firefights' go. Milliseconds count.

Carry however works for you... : )