Kimbers: Why So Much Hate?

[goldengate]

The reason why there are so much hate toward Kimber is because of their customer service. I dealt with them before and after that experience, I can never recommend Kimber to anyone. Their 1st level customer support/phone reps are actually pretty friendly and willing to help, but not that POS management or their custom shop. I have to admit, some of their guns look really pretty, but I always ask myself before buying a Kimber, "do I feel lucky with this one?".

[sholling]

So let me re-phrase it then.

If Kimbers were bad, horrendously subpar in quality across the board, they won't sell.

But they do sell, so Kimbers are NOT bad, horrendously subpar in quality across the board.

I'll type slow... Kimbers are not "horrendously bad across the board" and nobody said they were. The trouble is when you get one with problems their iffy customer service and their too short warranty just suck! Imagine taking your new car back to the dealer with a slipping automatic transmission and having them tell you to drive it another 6 months and see if it gets better . I don't want to hear that crap - just send me a shipping label and make it work the way it should have right out of the box and let me get on with my life.

Kimber makes a bazillion pistols every year and a certain percentage are going to need service right out of the box due to a factory screw up. That's just reality in the manufacturing world and it isn't a problem if you can get it fixed with one phone call like you can with Springfield Armory or S&W. It's when they tell you to just put $200 worth of ammo though it to "break it in" before they'll talk about fixing their screw up that a normal number of manufacturing defects becomes unacceptable.

As I said before - if they fix the Swartz design to make it more robust and they improve their customer service (no break in excuses) and lengthen their warranty I'll start recommending them more often.

I think that it's worth noting Kimber covers thier guns for life when it comes to manufactured defects. Not exactly sure what that means but it seems some issues are covered for life.

Please show where in the written warranty it says that. That's the problem, out of warranty service comes down to who you talk to and their mood at the time. Sometimes they will do free out of warrnty repairs and sometimes they won't. I've had bad in-warranty customer service from them and both excellent and horrible out of warranty customer service from Kimber.

Kimber firearms are warranted to be free from defects in material and workmanship for a period of one year from the date of the original retail purchase as new merchandise. Kimber agrees to correct, by repair or replacement with a new or comparable model, a qualifying Kimber product without charge, if returned with a copy of a dated bill of sale. Kimber assumes no responsibility for product malfunction, physical injury or property damage resulting in whole or in part from criminal use, or negligent, improper or careless handling, unauthorized modifications, use of defective, improper or hand-loaded ammunition, abuse, neglect or any other influences beyond Kimber’s control.

This warranty does not apply to the normal wear of any parts or surface finish, including metal, wood, plastic, rubber or other materials. This warranty does not cover repairs related to unreasonable use, corrosion, damage, barrels damaged by an obstructed bore. It also does not apply to loss or damage suffered during return shipment.

Compare with Springfield Armory....

Springfield, Inc. warrants to the initial retail purchaser that the products it sells will be free of defects in workmanship or material during his or her lifetime as long as he or she owns the product.

[goldengate]

Ahem Sholling! It is not about who is producing more or less defective handguns, but it is about taking care of your customer when they have an issue.

[guitargeak99]

As I said before - if they fix the Swartz design to make it more robust

Please school me..., what is the Swartz design?
Regards

[HPGunner]

I believe the schwartz safety is the firing pin block that is actuated by the grip safety as opposed to the Colt Series 80 firing pin block that is actuated by the trigger.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

[DArBad]

Well Sholling, I do have several bad experiences with Springfield Armory Inc. too.

On my SA SS loaded, the sucker came from the box with plenty of sharp edges it drew blood. Sent to SA for rectification, the response was..... its in spec!. What the f.... a gun with sharp edges that cuts like a cheese grater is in spec??? So after a few converations with their vaunted CS, they said they will " soften " all the sharp edges but I have to pay. Had to pay the shipping on this one.

Second bad experience was a GI with a heavy and gritty trigger pull and incessant FTF/FTE. Sent gun to factory.... I was told the gun is not timed, the extractor was too tight and those will be fixed under warranty. But to rectify the heavy and trigger pull, I have to pay. Had to pay also the shipping on this one. Same bad experience with the other two SA's. Again, per my experience, the vaunted CS of Springfield is nothing to brag about. The fitting and internals were horrendous, the holes were not properly drilled. They will all be rectified, provided I pay exhorbitant amount, MORE than the price of the guns!

With Colt. Sent a ss Colt 1991 due to myriad problems, its too long to inumerate here. Gun came back not fixed, and in addition, had so many scratches all over!

All the aggravations I had with 1911s occured on both those brands. I was afraid to buy a Kimber due to reading in this forum and elsewhere. I thought, the hell with all the negativity, I'll buy the Kimbers, and if ever I encounter the same aggravations as on the other two, then its my money.

BUT for me, the Kimber was 100% satisfaction out of the box, I decided to buy a second one, same result.

Now, to insinuate that the reason people buy Kimbers is because: They don't know any better and are just taken in by ads is just plain insulting and presumptous on those who make such judgement.

I know you like SW's and from reading in the error net they are afflicted with their own issues most esp. the earlier ones. But I will not throw out a hate call on SWs just because of that-----------such civility however, is rare amongst Kimber haters.

[sholling]

Please school me..., what is the Swartz design?
Regards

California requires a drop test to in order to get on the "not unsafe" handgun list. There are a few ways to achieve that. Springfield Armory uses a very light firing pin and heavy springs to minimize the possibility of momentum carrying the firing pin forward into the primer should the pistol be dropped on its muzzle. The downside is a heavy (5.5-6lb) out of the box trigger. S&W, colt, and Kimber went with firing block safeties instead and of those both Kimber and S&W use flavors of the Swartz system.

The Swartz (correct spelling) firing pin block safety system prevents the firing pin from moving if you're not holding the grip safety down firmly. A spring holds the block (#42) in place until you grip the weapon properly and then a system of levers (#17 & 18) lifts the block up out of the way allowing the weapon to fire when you pull the trigger. If any part of the linkage is damaged the block won't be lifted and the pistol won't go bang. The little skinny (MIM?) parts in the Kimber implementation are so skinny and apparently so easily damaged that they exclude it from the warranty. In place of Kimber's skinny pin S&W pistols use a much stronger design with much heavier parts.


Kimber design courtesy of mouseguns.com

[Cyc Wid It]

"Of all the firing pin safety mechanisms on the market, the original Colt Series 80 - in a Colt - is the most reliable of them all. The platforms utilizing the Swartz safety are a less than ideal choice across the board due to the inherent reliability problems of the design. The Swartz safety is extremely sensitive to the fit of the grip safety to the frame and the timing of the grip safety's trigger blocking arm. Tolerance issues can also lead to a Swartz safety that will time properly when the grip safety is depressed a certain way, and time differently when depressed a different way. This will typically be a product of loose fit of the grip safety to the frame tangs and/or loose fit of the thumb safety shaft through the grip safety. It is possible to have the grip safety timed such that the trigger will be able to release the sear well before the firing pin safety plunger has been moved far enough to clear the firing pin. Problems with improper timing of the Swartz safeties can lead to a situation where you get a "click" when you wanted a "bang." That's a serious problem. "

And in general regarding the Kimber Warrior/Kimber.

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2010/07/kimber-warrior.html

[TripleThreat]

Please show where in the written warranty it says that. That's the problem, out of warranty service comes down to who you talk to and their mood at the time.

I would love to prove that statment, I can't even prove air exist, however it was stated to me over the phone today when I called them at 888-243-4522 as I had a question about my 70's Series Kimber.

Free free to call them and you should receive the same info. if/when you confirm this you can let us all know so I don't look like a jackas that makes things up.

Triple

[sholling]

On my SA SS loaded, the sucker came from the box with plenty of sharp edges it drew blood. Sent to SA for rectification, the response was..... its in spec!. What the f.... a gun with sharp edges that cuts like a cheese grater is in spec???

If you're referring to checkering that's a feature and I'd expect to pay to have them "softened".

Second bad experience was a GI with a heavy and gritty trigger pull and incessant FTF/FTE. Sent gun to factory.... I was told the gun is not timed, the extractor was too tight and those will be fixed under warranty.

They fixed the warranty issue under warranty and charged you for a trigger job - that's normal to. A 5.5-6lb trigger is in the advertised spec. You ordered a "GI" model and you're shocked that it came with a rough "GI" trigger. It's why I point people at the Loaded it's a more refined pistol. Don't buy a "GI" if you want a refined pistol, that's what the loaded is for. You may want to stay away from AR15s to because they come with a heavy-gritty GI trigger to and if you want better you have to replace it.

All the aggravations I had with 1911s occured on both those brands. I was afraid to buy a Kimber due to reading in this forum and elsewhere. I thought, the hell with all the negativity, I'll buy the Kimbers, and if ever I encounter the same aggravations as on the other two, then its my money.

I'm glad that you're had good luck with Kimbers I really am. Most people are happy with their purchase whatever brand they get. I happen to like mine now that they both work reliably but I have the knowledge and skill and tools that were required to make my newest reliable.

Now, to insinuate that the reason people buy Kimbers is because: They don't know any better and are just taken in by ads is just plain insulting and presumptous on those who make such judgement.

You're coming across as fanboy defensive and you don't need to. To set the record straight I own two Kimbers, one Springer, and one S&W1911 and never said that everyone that buys a Kimber only does so because they don't know any better. But the fact remains that many of their customers just don't know any better, many aren't even gun people and aren't capable of diagnosing and fixing problems on their own. Way too many Kimber customers are like the person who buys a sports car because it's "cute" with no idea what they're getting into.

I know you like SW's and from reading in the error net they are afflicted with their own issues most esp. the earlier ones. But I will not throw out a hate call on SWs just because of that-----------such civility however, is rare amongst Kimber haters.

See what I mean about the fanboy defensiveness? It's not hate - I own Kimbers. It's the reality of their iffy customer service and short warranty and no amount of ranting and railing at me is going to make their customer service better or extend their warranties.

[sholling]

I would love to prove that statment, I can't even prove air exist, however it was stated to me over the phone today when I called them at 888-243-4522 as I had a question about my 70's Series Kimber.

Free free to call them and you should receive the same info. if/when you confirm this you can let us all know so I don't look like a jackas that makes things up.

Triple

You don't look bad. What you hear on the phone depends on who you're talking to. What matters though is what's in writing because when a customer service rep having a bad day tells you to pay or pound sand it's all that you can hold them to.

[Dionyn]

What I found is most people I know who have anything negative to say about Kimber expect a gun to work 100% right out of the box and base their entire impression of a company on that. It's these people who tend to have the biggest issues with Kimbers. I tend to be in the camp where there's a break in period where you find out if there are quirks with the gun and fix or send it in as necessary.

I have a 9mm target and along with many people here, I do agree that the magazine that came with it was complete junk. Also, as the gun was breaking in, I found that it had massive failure to eject issues. A simple change to Tripp mags and an Ed Brown extractor later seems to make everything run very well now making it my preferred pistol for USPSA. Sure, I would have been much happier not having to do these things, but at least these fixes were fairly inexpensive.

I own quite a few Glock pistols as well, and I found that all of "my" 1911s, regardless of make (Kimber, SA, Sig) did not give me a "ready out of the box" gun like the Glock did but after break-in and tuning, all my 1911s regardless of manufacturer have served me well. I have also never had an issue dealing with customer service from any of the companies I have dealt with and this includes Kimber.

[Lu(ky]

I bought a Kimber TRE/RL II Stainless never had one FTF,or FTE eats all ammo with no problems even reloads. Very accurate out of the box handgun, paid $1200.00 for it was hard to find.

My CONS
1. Only one magazine and it sucks for a $1200.00 handgun (replaced it with 3 x Wilson Combat 8-round Elite Tactical Magazine 500c $40 each )
2. Main Spring Housing is a cheap plastic really on a $1200 handgun! (Replaced it with a Ed Brown Drop-In Maxi-Well, Flat, Checkered 25 LPI $100.00)
3. Grips are cheap plastic easy to slip when hands get sweaty! (Replacement VZ grips Operators II Black G10 $75.00)

If I would do it all over again I would have just bought a Springfield TRP and been done with it..

I am happy with Kimber but just frustrated on the cheapness they put into it..

[glockman19]

So for the last several years, quite a few FFLs tell me that Kimbers have a much higher return-for-repair rate - even subtracting out bad ammo, idiocy etc.

Magazines don't seem to be an issue on Kimbers and problems are duplicated even running factory Colt mags.

These guys don't like them because even though they can sell for bigger $$$ there's just more grief involved.

That being said, some of these same FFLs like to shoot 1911s and use Kimbers for base platforms for custom guns.

I will note that these same FFLs are quite pleased - by contrast - with no complaints on the RIA (Rock Island Armory) basic 1911s. Everyone loves 'em.

Honestly, Kimber needs to figure it out if RIA is eclipsing them on return/repairs.

Again, this is because of the number Kimber Produces...as a persentage of firearms produced their return rate is similar to other companies...So yes...FFL's will see more Kimbers returned with issues than any other because Kimber produces vastly more than the others.

[digdug74]

I can't speak to the latest generation of Kimber 1911s, however, their earlier stuff was great. I bought a Series I Kimber full size back in '99 and still have it. The gun was and remains an absolute tack driver even after 10k plus rounds through it. I did ditch the orignal factory magazines, though. Even back then they were garbage. I've found reliablity to be excellent provided you change out magainze and recoil springs regularly, but that goes for just about any semi auto.

Nevertheless, in the late 90's at least, Kimber 1911s were regarded as the latest, greatest thing in 1911s: an "affordable" 1911 with "custom" features that came that way right out of the box. What's funny is that just a few years later, I started reading about all kinds of CQ issues with the newer crops of Kimbers. I got the sense that success had essentially gotten the better of them and it seems like that rep is still hanging around them a bit.

There was a lot of stuff in the early 2000's about CQ issues that didn't seem to be there before. I