9mm vs .40

[Travis590A1]

Interview with Bob Stasch, Chicago PD, multiple gunfight survivor:

http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/05/23/052-interview-with-bob-stasch-of-the-chicago-police-department/

MP3:

http://media.blubrry.com/proarms/p/content.blubrry.com/proarms/052.mp3

In his first gunfight ( described at 8:10 in the MP3 ) the bad guy took 6 rounds of 45 Colt, 5 shots of 38, 4 rounds of 44 Magnum...and was only stopped because his knee was shot out. The guy was 5-7, 140 pounds, and had no drugs in his system. The bad guy wanted to live and was willing to fight to the end.

The whole MP3 is worth a listen.

-- Michael

What L.E. officer carries a .45 long colt? Lol was the cops name Wyatt erp?

[elSquid]

so he took 15 or so rounds? and only the knee shot made him stop? lol for some reason i call it BS...

People seem to put mythical attributes on handgun rounds. Probably from watching too much TV and movies - where violence is scripted, dramatized, and ultimately unrealistic.

Another example of the reality of gunfights:

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

Bad guy was hit 22 times with a 40, 17 center of mass.

-- Michael

[elSquid]

What L.E. officer carries a .45 long colt? Lol was the cops name Wyatt erp?

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765838_-1_757779_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Model 25s have been around for a long time. I used to own one, though mine was a 45ACP.

-- Michael

[JeremyS]

...the bad guy took 6 rounds of 45 Colt...

Old school. And one of the last handgun rounds I'd like to be hit by (if I were forced to rank them). Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap make some hot loads for this, up to 360 grain bullets going fast! Check out this one w/ a Barnes XPB going hella fast from a revolver:



...out of a carbine they exceed 1,850 fps. No slouch of a round! I tend to think of the soft-shooting cowboy action loads when I think .45 LC, but some loadings are no joke.

[ianS]

Old school. And one of the last handgun rounds I'd like to be hit by (if I were forced to rank them). Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap make some hot loads for this, up to 360 grain bullets going fast! Check out this one w/ a Barnes XPB going hella fast from a revolver:



...out of a carbine they exceed 1,850 fps. No slouch of a round! I tend to think of the soft-shooting cowboy action loads when I think .45 LC, but some loadings are no joke.

If I knew my next door neighbor was using this over-penetrative round for home defense I'd be pissed.

[neouser]

If I knew my next door neighbor was using this over-penetrative round for home defense I'd be pissed.

How do you know the round will over penetrate?

[JeremyS]

If I knew my next door neighbor was using this over-penetrative round for home defense I'd be pissed.

I dunno, it's just a pure copper hollow point. I doubt it would get very far through hard barriers. I'd be much more concerned (if I were to be concerned with this sort of thing) by the extra heavy hard cast loads buffalo bore and double tap make. But that wouldn't be a normal choice for two legged things anyway... but... those loads could go through a troop of those and a bunch of walls, too (or end-to-end through a fat bear and keep on truckin').

[ianS]

I dunno, it's just a pure copper hollow point. I doubt it would get very far through hard barriers. I'd be much more concerned (if I were to be concerned with this sort of thing) by the extra heavy hard cast loads buffalo bore and double tap make. But that wouldn't be a normal choice for two legged things anyway... but... those loads could go through a troop of those and a bunch of walls, too (or end-to-end through a fat bear and keep on truckin').

Its still a 225 grain bullet clocking at 1500 fps at the muzzle. Your assailant happens to be some skinny 140 lbs thug. Is it gonna have a chance to expand and slow down? I dunno sounds real iffy to me. Plenty of good .45 ACP loads (if you insist on a large bore out there) with good penetration more likely to dump all its energy on your perp. And yeah, a legal shoot is a legal shoot but its still something a prosecutor or civil attorney will characterize as a "hunting round" for dangerous game. Follow up shots a real challenge too. Do you really think this is some magic bullet?

[neouser]

If anything, that round looks like it would have moderate penetration. From a physics standpoint, many things should affect penetration depth. Bullet weight, bullet design, diameter of frontal cross section, velocity, etc. As a generalization, light weight bullets, thin jackets, wide bullets and high velocity should all reduce penetration by reducing momentum and/or increasing the drag profile. The inverse would be true with heavier bullets, thick jackets, narrower bullets and low velocity rounds. That's before factoring in obstructions like clothing and bone.

With an initial cross section at .451, a weight of 220 grain, and a velocity of 1500 fps, the specs of the actual bullet aren't far off from a 45 ACP, but it clocks in almost 650 fps faster. That bullet looks like it would penetrate less than a typical 45 ACP hollowpoint due to rapid expansion.

I think there are some good examples of this concept based on the test results of several cartridges:

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SacramentoCountyWBW.pdf

[Richard Erichsen]

Looking in to buying a Sig SP2022 but I'm torn on which model. I would really like to know pros and cons between the 9mm vs a .40. I'm really looking for opinions on the calibre as opposed to the model of the gun, unless one is seriously better than the other in this specific model.

Any help is appreciated!

First post came out completely wrong so I'm editing it before I get labeled as the biggest douche on the website.

9 mm is completely adequate and there are proven stoppers in the caliber from the likes of Cor Bon and Federal, among others. The .40 S&W was a roundabout way to get into a somewhat larger caliber by way of the FBI's aborted 10 mm science project. The FBI's search for the ultimate semi-auto handgun caliber ended with the conclusion that something less bulky, with less recoil and blast in a smaller package was needed. The .40 S&W had the same energy using the same bullets as the reduced "FBI load" while fitting into frames originally designed for 9 mm, making it easier to carry, easier to conceal and a better match for agents with smaller hands. 10 mm was done for and very few agencies still carry the full sized guns with full power loads.

With +P loads, 9 mm yields impressive ballistics in a package suitable for smaller concealed carry weapons all the way up to full sized frames with large magazine capacities (anywhere but here that is). For all the perceived terminal performance gains, .40 cal met an FBI requirement for a larger caliber based on a knee jerk reaction to the Miami shootout. It is no panacea.

If you really want a .40 cal pistol, the original 10 mm is still offered in a few blistering loads suitable for hunting purposes, a niche it seems well suited for. Handloaders are keeping it alive. None of these calibers, 9mm, .40 S&W or even full house 10 mm loads have the proven track record of the .357 magnum for one-shot stops, but the percentages have to be kept in context.

9mm and .40 S&W should be seen as interchangeable in most regards except for a hit on magazine capacity that in CA doesn't matter unless you had magazines prior to 2000.

R

[DubCee]

aside from ballistics and stopping power and that other stuff. . . .

rent a 9mm and a 40sw, shoot 50 rds of both, and pick out which one you like the most.

[Rhatical]

Shoot both before deciding. I hate the snappy recoil of .40 so have eliminated those from my mix entirely. Between the two calibers you're considering would go 9mm, but my preference is .45 given the CA 10 round mag limit.

A friend of mine is in NSW DevGru, and his favorite all around handgun caliber is 9mm (Sig P226), followed by .45 (HK45 is their issue option, but he likes the Sig P220 better for what it's worth). Have shot both extensively, and my preference is the HK. Bottom line, he has no hesitation over the 9mm as a go-to round.

[Bobby Hated]

God i love .40 S&W

bullet weight of a .45 at the velocity of a 9mm. best of both worlds.

I'm transitioning all my competition guns to .40 and im in the market for a .40 for my car/HD gun too.

people should be ashamed to complain that its too "snappy". man up people! stop that limp wristing and hold that thing like its a gun.

[JeffC]

9 is cheap, almost half the price of a 40 cal.
The more you shoot the better you will get.
.40 is more expensive, but if your $$ is not an issue you might as well go .45 and have less recoil. Consecutive shots on a .40 can be tough, for me at least.

I don't know many people or heard any storied of people that have been shot with 9mm that would have died it if was a 40 cal. Or many people that have died from a 40 cal that would have lived if it was a 9mm
You will get many different opinions, consider them all, then make an educated starting point.

[wireless]

Reasons why I prefer 9mm.

-Cost
-Wound track is virtually the same as .40
-Recoil
-Easier to place more shots in vital area quicker
-Availability
-I am not shooting through car doors in self defense scenarios


From what I understand the .40cal was designed for FBI. They needed more penetration through something like a car door. Since I am not a criminal or law enforcement agent, a 9mm will do me just fine in self defense considering I can engagement a target significantly quicker and more accurately with a 9mm, and I'd be shooting at a soft target regardless.



That being said, I keep a .357magnum GP100 under my pillow and a .45 in the night stand. If I were to conceal carry I'd carry a .45 and glock 26 (9mm) as back up.

10 rounds of 9mm in self defense would do me just fine.



Don't forget. Your handgun is their to defend yourself as you go get the AR or 12guage or AK.