AR/AK pistols

[bwiese]

So an AR style OLL with pistol grip, flash hider, detachable mag, any evil feature basically, and a pistol style "stock" rather than a stock made to fire the weapon from the shoulder could be considered legal?

The writers of SB23 forgot to deal with issues of definitions of 'rifle', 'pistol' and 'shotgun'.

The firearm as you describe - an off-list semiauto centerfire firearm with a 16" min. bbl length and min 26" overall length - is not a rifle since it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder.

An even better setup for clarity is using a ZM Weapons upper where no receiver extension tube (often called "buffer tube") is required.

Similarly an AK-type OLL firearm akin to the above is also not a rifle. Just for clarity's sake when buttstock removed some sort of end cap should cover any buttstock mount point to show inention of "not being a rifle".

Such a firearm is certainly not a shotgun or rifle as per 12020(c)(20, 21) as it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder. It is not a pistol or handgun - over 16" (and 26"). This follows the Fed GCA '68 material - remember our recent discussion of Mossberg Cruiser 500s without stocks as not being shotguns and thus not sellable to those under 21?

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

The writers of SB23 forgot to deal with issues of definitions of 'rifle', 'pistol' and 'shotgun'.

The firearm as you describe - an off-list semiauto centerfire firearm with a 16" min. bbl length and min 26" overall length - is not a rifle since it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder.

An even better setup for clarity is using a ZM Weapons upper where no receiver extension tube (often called "buffer tube") is required.

Similarly an AK-type OLL firearm akin to the above is also not a rifle. Just for clarity's sake when buttstock removed some sort of end cap should cover any buttstock mount point to show inention of "not being a rifle".

Such a firearm is certainly not a shotgun or rifle as per 12020(c)(20, 21) as it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder. It is not a pistol or handgun - over 16" (and 26"). This follows the Fed GCA '68 material - remember our recent discussion of Mossberg Cruiser 500s without stocks as not being shotguns and thus not sellable to those under 21?

Excellent, thanks for the info. Now how many people are willing to remove the stock from their off list ak style rifles? I don't believe a standard Romanian build will make the 26" minimum length without a longer muzzle device.

So I guess this means my little Mossberg 500 with the 18" barrel and pistol grip (just a hair over 26") can't even be considered a shotgun under California penal code deffinition?

[Sal]

to be classified as an AOW it has to of never have had a stock mounted to it, and had to be designed to have never had a stock on it from the begining.

That may just apply if you wanted to register it with the ATF as an AOW, and removing and having no stock on the rifle may just de-classify it as a rifle.

I have looked into the AOW thing a bit, but never into building my own, so im not sure if you can just remove the stock from a rifle that already had one.

[bwiese]

Excellent, thanks for the info. Now how many people are willing to remove the stock from their off list ak style rifles? I don't believe a standard Romanian build will make the 26" minimum length without a longer muzzle device.

Whatever needs to be done to keep it 16"/26" - longer bbl, longer muzzle device, etc.

And again, I also would advise if this route is taken that a special cover device, etc. is mounted over where the buttstock used to fit to clarify that this is not a 'defective rifle missing a stock' but that there is clear intent for this *firearm* to be a non-rifle.

So I guess this means my little Mossberg 500 with the 18" barrel and pistol grip (just a hair over 26") can't even be considered a shotgun under California penal code deffinition?

Correctamundo - under both CA and Federal law.

A Mossy 500 "Cruiser" 12GA *firearm* under Fed law can't be sold to someone under 21 unlike a regular Mossy 500 stocked shotgun since it is not exempted via GCA '68 for FFL sale to those under 21 (unlike rifles and shotguns) - unless it was sold with a stock in the box.

But what the firearm is is at the moment "as considered" and "as configured": a stumpy Mossy Cruiser ain't a shotgun per CA or Fed law!

[AJAX22]

there is no requirement that the modification to single shot be permenant or difficult to reverse, just that it be set up in a manner that its intended function is single shot.

a bullet button and a bobslead is more than enough to render an AR into a single shot. and if you could get one for an AK it would work just fine.

If I can come up with something for 1911 frames, would anyone want one? I've got a few designs that I've been toying with.

oh and double check your AK measurements, we've only got to hit 26 inches not 30. an AK with a 16 inch barrel should at least 1/2 inch over the minimum length. heck an AMD65 with no modification is 25.5 inches long with a standard muzzlebreak attached, and a Rommy G is a good two inches longer than that.



Just to add, the CA legislature knows all about the 'other' catagory of weapons, its why they included the wording to cover firearms which are not pistols but are concealable on your person.

[tiger222]

The writers of SB23 forgot to deal with issues of definitions of 'rifle', 'pistol' and 'shotgun'.

The firearm as you describe - an off-list semiauto centerfire firearm with a 16" min. bbl length and min 26" overall length - is not a rifle since it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder.

An even better setup for clarity is using a ZM Weapons upper where no receiver extension tube (often called "buffer tube") is required.

Similarly an AK-type OLL firearm akin to the above is also not a rifle. Just for clarity's sake when buttstock removed some sort of end cap should cover any buttstock mount point to show inention of "not being a rifle".

Such a firearm is certainly not a shotgun or rifle as per 12020(c)(20, 21) as it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder. It is not a pistol or handgun - over 16" (and 26"). This follows the Fed GCA '68 material - remember our recent discussion of Mossberg Cruiser 500s without stocks as not being shotguns and thus not sellable to those under 21?

Ok - so what does one need to do to qualify for this AOW status? Any forms to fill out or stamps to get? The example that comes to mind is a V53L, V93 or PTR K rifle that has the buttstock removed and an HKA1 endcap installed - no buttstock. Does the OAL have to be 26"? or is that just the minimum?

So a V53L, V93 or PTR K with no buttstock can be run with a pistol grip, open magwell and flash hider ~ and it's OK?

Thanks in advance.

[bwiese]

Ok - so what does one need to do to qualify for this AOW status?

Please, you and a couple others weren't fully reading what I wrote in my last few posts in this thread.

I had said that some AOWs were legal in CA and uncontrolled/ unpermitted by DOJ if NFA paperwork were properly and legally taken care of in a special way, of which I'd write about in a few weeks.


As an entirely separate issue- as far as a 26" OAL + 16" bbl semiauto centerfire *firearm* without a buttstock, that is a *firearm* - but it is not a rifle, it is not a pistol/handgun/revolver. It is not an SBR, SBS or AOW under Fed or CA law. It is thus not an AW either because SB23 AW laws only apply to "pistols", "rifles", and "shotguns" as defined in 12020(c).

I am not an attorney and this ain't legal advice, but I would emphasize that construction of such a non-AW/non-rifle/non-AOW plain ol' firearm should include some kind of end cap, decorative or otherwise, which eliminates possiblity of mounting a variety of buttstocks and demonstrates there's no intent of this being fireable from the shoulder.

[tiger222]

Please, you and a couple others weren't fully reading what I wrote in my last few posts in this thread.

I had said that some AOWs were legal in CA and uncontrolled/ unpermitted by DOJ if NFA paperwork were properly and legally taken care of in a special way, of which I'd write about in a few weeks.


As an entirely separate issue- as far as a 26" OAL + 16" bbl semiauto centerfire *firearm* without a buttstock, that is a *firearm* - but it is not a rifle, it is not a pistol/handgun/revolver. It is not an SBR, SBS or AOW under Fed or CA law. It is thus not an AW either because SB23 AW laws only apply to "pistols", "rifles", and "shotguns" as defined in 12020(c).

I am not an attorney and this ain't legal advice, but I would emphasize that construction of such a non-AW/non-rifle/non-AOW plain ol' firearm should include some kind of end cap, decorative or otherwise, which eliminates possiblity of mounting a variety of buttstocks and demonstrates there's no intent of this being fireable from the shoulder.

ah, OK got it, thanks sorry to have blended the replies. look foward to your AOW papers

[jumbopanda]

Whats the deal on these? I dont know much about AW laws regarding handguns but I figure if it was built with a P50 or BB wouldn't it be legal? I know it can be done since I remember seeing some guy's post in the general forum where he had built an AK pistol. So what's holding people back? I guess thet fact that they are a novelty of sorts and dont fill any real niche or need?

Yea that would be me. I'm attending UCSB in the fall so if you have any questions about AK pistolas you can ask me there.

[CalNRA]

hmm.

Bill, PM sent.

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

I had said that some AOWs were legal in CA and uncontrolled/ unpermitted by DOJ if NFA paperwork were properly and legally taken care of in a special way, of which I'd write about in a few weeks.

I am anxiously waiting for the new info.

Thanks for all the info so far.

[CalNRA]

I am so glad to see so many concerned citizens trying to hard to follow the law to the letter. It really reinforces the law-abiding attitude that Calguns has always known for.

[arguy15]

Edited

[sevans]

As an entirely separate issue- as far as a 26" OAL + 16" bbl semiauto centerfire *firearm* without a buttstock, that is a *firearm* - but it is not a rifle, it is not a pistol/handgun/revolver. It is not an SBR, SBS or AOW under Fed or CA law. It is thus not an AW either because SB23 AW laws only apply to "pistols", "rifles", and "shotguns" as defined in 12020(c).

This would make the current MP5 clones + an SP89 end cap very interesting...

I need to do some research.

[bwiese]

This would make the current MP5 clones + an SP89 end cap very interesting...

I need to do some research.

At least for now - I believe it's best to start with an ordinary non-pistol receiver.

That way it's never been a rifle nor a pistol nor a shotgun.