Kahr's Weakness

[paul0660]

9mmepiphany, you are saying that your Kahr is as reliable as your revolvers. I hope it stays that way.

[yzErnie]

The Kahr's do require more break-in time than most of the others. The thing that baffles me is why would someone want to CCW and not have a round in the chamber? In a self defense situation where time is of the essence, having to rack a round into the chamber seems inefficient.

[jdg30]

I had a Kahr K40 for years that I recently sold to my brother for his first gun. I never had a single malfunction with it ever, including during the break in period. I probably shot close to 1000 rounds through it. I commonly loaded it by inserting a mag and racking the slide to chamber the first round and it never caused any problems with it.

I think as long as you pull the slide all the way back so it can get the velocity from the spring tension that it needs, you will never have a problem. Having the slide locked back and releasing it, and manually racking the slide completely rearward and releasing are the same thing.

[tacticalcity]

I've recently discovered through watching videos of Kahr pistols that one cannot rack the slide to chamber a round, reliably. The company asks that you lock the slide back, insert a mag in, then hit the slide release. To me, that is a major disadvantage because it make carrying condition 2 (loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber) impractical and malfunction-prone. So my question is does other guns, especially the Glock series, have this problem. I was under the impression that all semi autos should be able to chamber a round with the magazine already inserted. With Glocks, you can even ease the slide slowly to chamber a round correct?

Yes, it is a major disadvantage but not for the reasons you state.

NEVER carry a firearm on your body with a loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber. I'm not trying to offend you, but that is truly knuckle-headed idea that will get you killed. Taking a professional firearms course (see the Competition and Training Section here on Calguns to find a course near you) will prove this to you without a doubt. A lot of untrained people think this gives them some sort of added safety. In truth, it is really dangerous. In a real life gun battle you will draw and forget to chamber a round. Even if you remember to wrack the slide, you will be dead before you finish doing so as the bad guy(s) just put 5 rounds into you. Fire fights last fractions of a second, not minutes. You will have a hard enough time clearing the holster, pointing in, getting a sight picture and getting rounds off as it is.

NEVER gently wrack the slide and "walk" if forward. This is one of the most common causes of feeding failures and jams. The proper way to chamber a round is to cup that large slide with your support side hand firmly, from the rear, being careful that no part of your hand is forward of the barrel, and forcefully pull the slide to rear. Pull so hard that when the slide reaches the rear your hand automatically comes off it and continues back until it hits you in the shoulder.

If your firearm does not allow for the above technique then get a different firearm.

Training doctrine, which is backed up by medical science, says that during a firefight your body will be flooded with adrenaline. Your body will literally go into shock. The very first thing to go will be your fine motor skills. You will not have the necessary fine motor skills to work that tiny little slide release with your nibble little thumb, not efficiently. Trying to do so could very easily get you killed. So I really don't care what the manual says. If the proper way to chamber a round does not work on that specific firearm, then it is the wrong firearm for self defense. I am not saying the Khar won't work properly, you guys are. For all I know it will. I haven't read that manual myself.

I cannot tell you how much a professional firearms course will help drive some of the things I've said home. You'll experience first hand just how little time you have in a firefight to get rounds down range, how badly walking the slide forward messes you up and causes feeding issues, and how impossible it is to work that tiny little slide release when under stress (and that stress is only a fraction of what you'll experience when it is for real). Your shooting ability and gun handling skills will increase drastically. You will be amazed with yourself. Besides, those course are so much damn fun. Best time you'll have with your clothes on.

They wear in so you can rack or even slingshot them reliably

Now this I would tend to believe. It is really hard for me to believe the Kahrs would have such an obvious and seriously dangerous design flaw.

NOTHING is more efficient than a J Frame snubby, if reliability factors into efficiency at all. IMO.

While I am all for a revolver as backup, I just can't see using one as primary. Too few rounds. Too slow to reload (no matter how quick you get you would be even faster if you put as much training time into reloading a semi-auto). The revolver as a primary self defense weapon only holds up if you have one or two attackers at most. Given the increase in gang activity these days, you can't count on that. Figure 3-5 rounds or more per bad guy. The one shot one kill thing is a Hollywood myth. As is hiding behind the counter and taking forever and day on reloads or having enough time to cock the hammer during a firefight. High round count and lightening fast reloads are critical in primary self defense weapon in my mind. Those two features far out way the relatively minor risk of a malfunction. A backup gun and due diligence on practicing you malfunction drills will help decrease the risk, though I agree having a malfunction during a firefight is a terrifying prospect. Heck, being in a firefight at all is terrifying prospect.

speaking for the Glock 17, 21sf, 30 and 23... yes you are correct, sometimes it takes a push to fully chamber if you're using reloads.

Solution = don't use reloads. There are a long list of reasons not to use reloads. The biggest of which is that they are responsible for 99.99% of all KABOOMS. The next biggest is they do not feed as reliably. I could go on and on. How much is your life, your face, or your hands worth? Certainly more than the few cents you save per round over factory new ammo. I know this opinion pisses a lot of people off. However it is firmly reinforced with the blood of my fellow shooters during training courses and even more KABOOM after reports passed on by instructors. It is just not worth it. Maybe, and I stress maybe, if you are ultra skilled then I would find it an acceptable risk to shoot your own reloads. Staking your life on somebody else's reloads is just nuts.

my friend's m&p drops the slide when you insert a loaded magazine. not sure if this is intentional design but I wonder why other pistols don't do this.

I've heard lots of guys say this about lots of different firearms and say it is design feature. Maybe it is, but I doubt it. My personal experience with my Glock is that this will go away over time. What I think is going on is that when it is new it has a thick coated finish that prevents the slide from locking back as securely as it should. Over time, with constant use, that finish wears down and the slide locks in place much better. I've actually seen this cause an ND. The very experienced shooter had a relaxed grip on the firearm. Other than that their grip was perfect and their finger was indeed indexed on the slide. However, when they slammed the magazine home, the slide released unexpectedly the force of which caused the firearm to jump in their hand, the finger to enter the trigger well and pull the trigger. Bear in mind their hand and their finger did not move at all. The only thing moving was the firearm. Scared the heck out of all of us. Thankfully this happened on a shooting range and the firearm was pointed down range in safe direction (at the target). Ironically the hit as in the 10 ring. This is considered an ND because it was the shooters fault for not having a proper grip. He got complacent.

ONE REALLY COOL FEATURE ABOUT GLOCKS THAT I RECENTLY LEARNED.

Those of you who have taken firearms courses know that clearing a double feed is a night mare. Failure fires are easy. Just tap and wrack. Stove pipes are pretty easy too. Tap, wrack and flip. Double feeds require a long and drawn out process that requires lots of fine motor skills you're not likely to have if and when you find yourself in real firefight. Except on the Glocks (and maybe some other firearms as well, I was told it is a Glock but it might not be).

CORRECTED (will try and find a better source that explains it better and possibly more accurately as it is muscle memory now and I am having trouble remembering it with a firearm in my hands to do the actual steps). If I am remembering this correctly all you have to do to clear the double feed is press the magazine release, remove the magazine completely but keep it in your support side hand. With the magazine no longer there, the second round falls free to the ground. The force of the slide chambers the first round 99% of the time but the second round is so low that it gets forced down the magazine well and falls to the ground. Reinsert the magazine, driving it into place firmly. Wrack the slide for good measure just in case both rounds fell out, but most of the time one round was indeed in the chamber.

I cannot tell you how mad I was at all my previous instructors for not teaching me this method. Perhaps the didn't know it themselves. All those countless hours fighting through Complicated Type 3 Malfunction Clearances during their courses and my personal training time could have been avoided with a nice simple two step method. I never did get the complicted way down to the point where it was muscle memory, and I've been working at it for years. I like the simple way much better.

[mala in se]

my MK9 has never had that issue. i've only shot about 200 rds through it. however, i tried playing w/ a dummy round when i first heard of this issue and if you rack it slowly or follow the slide forward, it does not feed correctly (but really, who racks the slide like that?!).

anyway, i polished the feedramp w/ a dremel and this issue is non existant.

[k1dude]

Good post tacticalcity.

[sholling]

The Kahr's do require more break-in time than most of the others. The thing that baffles me is why would someone want to CCW and not have a round in the chamber? In a self defense situation where time is of the essence, having to rack a round into the chamber seems inefficient.

I have to agree. It makes zero sense to carry in condition 2.

[tacticalcity]

Good post tacticalcity.

Thanks.

[Untamed1972]

I've recently discovered through watching videos of Kahr pistols that one cannot rack the slide to chamber a round, reliably. The company asks that you lock the slide back, insert a mag in, then hit the slide release. To me, that is a major disadvantage because it make carrying condition 2 (loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber) impractical and malfunction-prone. So my question is does other guns, especially the Glock series, have this problem. I was under the impression that all semi autos should be able to chamber a round with the magazine already inserted. With Glocks, you can even ease the slide slowly to chamber a round correct?

Never had an issue with my G17. When shooting USPSA that's how I load on the line everytime. Remove gun from holster, slide fwd. Insert full mag, and rack slide. Never had it not chamber...not once....every.

[tacticalcity]

Never had an issue with my G17. When shooting USPSA that's how I load on the line everytime. Remove gun from holster, slide fwd. Insert full mag, and rack slide. Never had it not chamber...not once....every.

Me too. I think they were trying to say it is a Kahr specific issue, and another experienced user of Kahrs said it goes away after the firearm is fully broken in. Who knows? Sounds really odd to me. If it turns out to be true, I wouldn't trust my life to a Kahr for the reasons stated in my above post. But I doubt it is. It just sounds really hard to believe they would design their firearms that way. It is so contrary to doctrine.

[nazgulnarsil]

uhhh, tactical city that doesn't make any sense about double feeds.
1. you cant just pull the mag and reinsert it because that second round is still caught up in the loading area. it isn't magically going to go back into the magazine.
2.double feeds often occur because of a failure to extract which means the round in the chamber is already fired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

[tacticalcity]

My bad. It's muscle memory now, and without the firearm in my hand I am having trouble remembering how to explain it. Kind of like needing to actually dial a phone number to remember it.

I think it goes like this...but don't quote me.

Remove the magazine completely. With the magazine no longer there, the second round falls free to the ground. The force of the slide chambers the first round 99% of the time but the second round is so low that it gets forced down the magazine well and falls to the ground. Reinsert the magazine. Wrack the slide for good measure just in case both rounds fell out, but most of the time one round was indeed in the chamber.

Compare those steps to the more complicated method and it takes a fraction of the time.

I'll try and hunt down the exact steps from a reliable source just to make sure I am not passing along bad information. However done the proper way, it is much faster and more reliable than the traditional way. Sure wish I had it cemented better in my mind. However, I do it right when the gun is in my hand.

[OldLincoln]

I have both a Kahr PM9 and Colt LW Commander. Neither will chamber a JHP slowly. I don't see that as a flaw, it just is what it is. The Kahr was designed to be very small. This means the slide action is short and the feed ramp steep. JHP's may want to slow down when hitting the ramp but if hand racked back FULLY and released without ANY follow back they feed very well.

I was taught in my clearance drills to keep the gun pointed at the target, rack with the support hand while thrusting the gun into firing position with the strong, thereby ripping the gun out of the support hand. Do this with the Kahr or the Colt and it should work every time.

[9mmepiphany]

I've read the average shots fired by police is less than 4 rounds.

I used to plan based on that too, until I almost walked into atake-over robbery with 4 bad guys

[ruchik]

In my opinion, you should break a gun in with a few hundred rounds anyhow before carrying it. You wouldn't go racing a brand new car without breaking the engine in first and finding out what type of fuel it likes, what kind of oil is best for it, etc right? There aren't very many manufacturers that don't recommend breaking a gun in first anyway. From all the literature I've read concerning Kahrs, it seems like any problems regarding feeding issues goes away after the break in period. Theres a youtube video of aguy talking about the very same topic.

*Edit: I just PPT'd a Kahr K9 from a fellow Calgunner this weekend, with only 400 rounds through it. I found that I could chamber a snap cap even when walking the slide forward.