When to Draw

[JTROKS]

***THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED TO PROVIDE OR ASK FOR LEGAL ADVICE***

What do you guys think is the minimum amount of provocation needed to draw and/or use your weapon in public? I know what the law states, but how do some of you interpret "a reasonable person in a similar situation...."

If someone verbally threatens you harm but possesses no weapon?
If someone verbally threatens you with a weapon?
If someone starts a fist fight with you?
etc

Lets hear your thoughts.

If someone verbally threatens you harm but possesses no weapon? Words will not do you bodily harm, even when he moves to non-threatening distance it is still doesn't warrant drawing your weapon.

If someone verbally threatens you with a weapon? Is this person verbally threatening you with a weapon, i.e., "I'm gonna club you with this bat sucka", but still not advancing. Then it doesn't warrant drawing your gun. Now if the weapon is a gun, bow and arrow or crossbow and it is cocked and pointed at you then you have the right to draw and shoot.

If someone starts a fist fight with you? A fist fight is tricky. If he is way bigger than you and he doesn't listen to your request to cease the violence then you can draw your gun when he advances towards you. If the person is small and could be restrained by you then drawing your gun may not be the right choice when you're being judged by 12. This is a tricky situation since that small guy may be an MMA fighter and can inflict bodily harm as much as the big guy.

In a defensive situation you should try to exit out of a fight at all cause until the aggressor is advancing and in full attack, then you can defend yourself. You have to think what can happen after the fight. That fool's family can sue you for everything you have, they may not succeed, but you'll still have to spend money defending yourself in court. Then the thought of taking the exit may have been a better choice after all. It will cost a bit of your pride, but it's faster and cheaper than a defense lawyer.

I just successfully completed POST 832 and it changed my way of thinking when it comes to self defense with the use of deadly force. BTW, any weapon you use is considered deadly force unless you're trained to use it. Trained means, using it appropriately.

[B Strong]

***THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED TO PROVIDE OR ASK FOR LEGAL ADVICE***

What do you guys think is the minimum amount of provocation needed to draw and/or use your weapon in public? I know what the law states, but how do some of you interpret "a reasonable person in a similar situation...."

If someone verbally threatens you harm but possesses no weapon?

No.
If someone verbally threatens you with a weapon?

No.

If someone starts a fist fight with you?
etc

No.

Lets hear your thoughts.

My answers in bold.

The only time you can introduce any weapon into a situation is when you are in immediate threat of grievous injury or death.

Mere words or verbal threats won't constitute an immediate threat in 99% of use of force incidents.

[Rule .308]

You only pull your pistol for one reason, to shoot someone.
You only shoot someone for one reason, to kill them.
Unless this "someone" needs to die then there is ZERO justifiable reason for you pulling your piece.

That being said, you as a practicing CCW holder, need to walk the rice paper, avoid confrontation at all times, do not go to places that you could anticipate trouble at, drive like a saint, don't flip people off when they do something stupid on the road, walk/run away, and in the event that your are still met with a serious life threatening situation then pull your piece and defend your life.

[campperrykid]

Might be worthwhile to run a search on the Lethal Force Institute.
AFAIK , no LFI grad has ever been convicted of a bad shooting. Unfortunately , one man who was found "Not Guilty" of the homocide was sentenced to the mandatory one year in prison for illegal hand gun possession in Mass.
He survived a vicious attack , spent much of his life savings winning an acquital ... and still went to jail. Long story -- the individual made some very serious mistakes both before & after the actual violent incident.

[J-cat]

Are you a peace officer? If not, then unless whatever criminal activity is happening to you, or a victim is about to get one put through their head and you can reasonably intercede to prevent that from happening, then it's better to be as good a witness as you can. As a CCW permit holder you have no legal or moral authority to act as a LEO.

BS

In Ca you can arrest for misdemeanors and felonies commited in your presence.

[CSACANNONEER]

You draw when it is required to do so to protect your life. Do not draw unless you are fully ready to make someone "graveyard dead".

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=269589

[B Strong]

You only pull your pistol for one reason, to shoot someone.
You only shoot someone for one reason, to kill them.
Unless this "someone" needs to die then there is ZERO justifiable reason for you pulling your piece.

That being said, you as a practicing CCW holder, need to walk the rice paper, avoid confrontation at all times, do not go to places that you could anticipate trouble at, drive like a saint, don't flip people off when they do something stupid on the road, walk/run away, and in the event that your are still met with a serious life threatening situation then pull your piece and defend your life.

Good advice.

[J-cat]

To answer the OP's question, you can draw your weapon whenever you are reasonably in fear for your life.

What can make you reasonably fearful:

Your opponent's superior size, superior fighting ability, mechanical advantage, position, weapons or things that can be used as a weapon, known history of violence, verbage, etc.

All of the above will weigh into the monday morning quarterbacking that will follow your reaction.

Some will say don't get involved. I say if you see someone about to be killed, do something. Don't be one of those new age pansies... with a gun.

[paintballergb]

Like another Cal-gunner posted "google the Tuller drill" and take a CCW class.

I am fully aware of the Tueller Drill. I simply posed that scenario/question to the guy I quoted would said if you draw your weapon then you must shoot.

[xbimmers]

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NO EXPERT....

This is how I would do it.

I would draw my firearm for the following:

The ability and opportunity to cause death or great bodily injury to myself or an innocent person exists.

I would you leathal force for the following.

When the ability, opportunity, and intent are all present to cause death or great bodily injury to myself or an innocent person exists and is emminent and there is no other alternative to escape.

Even if all that exists I must check my line of sight and back drop.

I only shoot to stop the threat and never to kill.

I shoot at center mass of the threat.

end of story.

[taloft]

Read the top before scrolling down.

Using a firearm to defend someone else can be really tricky. Imagine you're coming around the corner and you see two guys fighting in a front yard. One guy has the other on the ground and is really pounding the snot out of the other. It appears that if it continues the guy taking the beating will be badly injured or killed. You warn the aggressor to stop but, he doesn't even acknowledge your presence. You draw and fire killing the aggressor........













































.....and you spend the rest of your days in the greybar hotel because the guy you just killed was an undercover police officer. He was in the process of arresting a man who had just butchered an entire family with the machete, which you didn't see, lying in the grass next to them. The officer has a deep gash on the side facing away from you where the suspect hit him with the blade as he ambushed the officer. The officer was unable to pull his badge or his gun because to do so would require him letting go of the suspect. He was literally in a fight for his life. The adrenaline pumping through him caused tunnel vision. Nothing outside his field of focus was getting through, and that is why he didn't hear you as you spoke.

Granted, my example is a bit over the top but, I'm using it to illustrate that things are not always cut and dry. You're best bet is to avoid winding up in a situation where you need to fire your weapon. If you don't have a solid grasp of the situation, or the laws surrounding it, you really shouldn't be drawing a weapon. It is much easier and less expensive to run away and call the police. Besides, if you do everything possible to de-escalate the situation it shows that your intent was to avoid trouble at all costs. No one wins a gunfight, there are only survivors.

For those asking these types of questions, I recommend attending CCW training. A good instructor will answer all these questions and get you thinking about the what if's. I'll bet everyone with CCW training will have heard this example before or some variant of it.

[J-cat]

Mistake of fact is a justification for homicide.

Also, there is a difference between two dudes wrestling and one beating the other with a bat or stabbing him while the other lies there defenseless.

[taloft]

Mistake of fact is a justification for homicide. Good luck with that one, I'd rather not take the chance that the jury doesn't feel the same way. You could just as easily tackle the officer, call the police, run away, etc. Shooting him wasn't your only option, and that will look bad in court.

Also, there is a difference between two dudes wrestling and one beating the other with a bat or stabbing him while the other lies there defenseless.--I never said the officer was doing any of those things. I said the officer was beating the guy on the ground. Not wrestling with him or stabbing him. I didn't say the guy on the ground was defenseless. The part about the officer getting stabbed, the machete, and the prior events was used to show that there may be things you're not aware of in a situation you just walked into.

The example given was to point out that you don't always know the circumstances of an event. Therefore, using a firearm in defense of another can be a tricky proposition. It wasn't to debate the merits of justifiable homicide. Nor am I saying that you should never use a firearm to defend another. What I'm saying is that if you have these types of questions you should get proper training so you don't screw yourself needlessly.

[J-cat]

Your attitude is precisely the reaqson why our crime rate is so high and criminals are running amok. Nonody wants to get involved. Peeople just look the other way.

And whenever someone decides to act, the government blames him. "You're a cowboy! You're out of control. You took the law into your own hands. We'll show you."

So people should not intervene because of a remote possibility that the bad guy is not really a bad guy? FYI, UC cops are trained to announce their LE status continuously while using force for this very reason... so they are not shot by mistake.

[taloft]

If that is what you got out of what I posted then I don't know what to tell you. You're mistaken on both counts.