When to Draw

[BigDogatPlay]

like an armed robbery for example, car jacking, or whatever somthin gnarly..

Are you a peace officer? If not, then unless whatever criminal activity is happening to you, or a victim is about to get one put through their head and you can reasonably intercede to prevent that from happening, then it's better to be as good a witness as you can. As a CCW permit holder you have no legal or moral authority to act as a LEO.

[Cokebottle]

like an armed robbery for example, car jacking, or whatever somthin gnarly..

Absolutely not, unless "somthin gnarly" includes an attack on another person.

You may use deadly force only in defense of your life, or the life of another person.
If you're in WalMart and someone goes Columbine in the front of the store, you would be justified in taking them out.

California does not allow for the use of deadly force to protect property.
Texas does.

[PutTogether]

The "fistfight" term is a little vague. I think the idea is more about disparity of force. I'm 6'1" 230. In a legit fistfight with someone my size cause he grabbed my wife's *** - I'm not pulling my gun.

In fact, with a gun, I don't want to be in a fight, because I woulnd't want to lose it, or for that matter, use it.

Now, that changes if I am pinned on the ground getting my face beat in while a guy is screaming he is going to kill me and burn my body. It changes if I am a 5'1" woman being tackled to the ground at 3 am in a deserted parking lot. "fistfights" can degenerate into a lot of situations, and quickly.

[Blademan21]

Are you a peace officer? If not, then unless whatever criminal activity is happening to you, or a victim is about to get one put through their head and you can reasonably intercede to prevent that from happening, then it's better to be as good a witness as you can. As a CCW permit holder you have no legal or moral authority to act as a LEO.

Bravo,BigDogatPlay,well said.

[walter]

there's no such thing as draw. if you draw you have to shoot. any other way wouldnt justify drawing.

now my friend who works in legal told me one time an assailant shot a dude, the guy somehow took the gun from assailant and empty the mag into him. the victim was charged with a crime.

[sqroot3]

ca penal code, cfl '07

i am all for running away, submitting to an assailant, and generally minimizing the risk of harm to everyone rather than drawing a weapon. reproduced below, for your contemplation, is CA penal code sections 197-198.5.

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned
in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide
may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the
circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable
person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of
such fears alone.

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

An interpretation of this is included in the 2007 publication of California Firearms Laws that el gato linked.

Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body
The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt
to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or
similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening
crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the
person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another
from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are
examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

[FieldsofFire]

Are you a peace officer? If not, then unless whatever criminal activity is happening to you, or a victim is about to get one put through their head and you can reasonably intercede to prevent that from happening, then it's better to be as good a witness as you can. As a CCW permit holder you have no legal or moral authority to act as a LEO.

Even some agencies frown on their officers taking action off-duty and just recommend that they take the "good witness" approach.

there's no such thing as draw. if you draw you have to shoot. any other way wouldnt justify drawing.

now my friend who works in legal told me one time an assailant shot a dude, the guy somehow took the gun from assailant and empty the mag into him. the victim was charged with a crime.

Well I wouldn't say that either, there are situations where one could draw and avoid having to fire. Like say, bad guy with a knife 15 yards away. I probably would not fire until the perp make a threatening movement toward me. If he drew a gun of his own, well, different story. But, I agree with you somewhat, if you are going to draw your weapon, you had better be mentally and physically prepared to discharge it without hesitation. With regards to your situation, I bet that happened here in sunny California...

[ldivinag]

When deciding to draw or not.. ... is there a minimum distance that you have in your head that you will let someone get before drawing?

google TUELLER DRILL...

[FieldsofFire]

When deciding to draw or not.. ... is there a minimum distance that you have in your head that you will let someone get before drawing?

Depends on what they are armed with. Typically, you may want to consider discharging your weapon sooner than most people would think. Someone can still put up a fight for a good amount of time even after taking a few rounds to center mass, even one through the heart. If the bad guy has a hammer or a knife and they make an advance toward you, I would try to stop them as soon as possible. If you are backed up against a wall and have no route of retreat, you have no choice anyway.

[paintballergb]

there's no such thing as draw. if you draw you have to shoot. any other way wouldnt justify drawing.

No way. Let's say a guy is running toward me from about 15 feet away armed with a knife. Obviously scared for my life (since he is going to close that distance fast) I pull out my weapon. By the time I bring up my weapon he is about 5 feet away but instantly stops and throws his hands up in the air thus dropping the knife. I still have to shoot him?

[sker13]

I interpret the law differently then most who posted. I grew up in Texas so maybe that has something to do with my mindset. If you told my Grand dad to watch a violent felony being commited and not do anything If you had opportunity and means he would say thats crazy! In Fresno/Clovis law enforcement has no problem with people defending themselves or the communty. I am 6'3'' 225lbs. and fairly fit. Therefor, I would match force with force. I hope I never have to draw my weapon. I realize I would probably not be able to win a case where I was the bigger man in a physical assault senario. Your mind is your best weapon and you always have it with you. Run don't walk if you are the only one in danger and you have a way out!

[juicemansam]

If you shoot someone in CA, it better have been for a damn good reason because 9 times outta ten you will be prosecuted. This state HATES the idea of serfs protecting themselves or their property. They want you to LAY DOWN, GIVE them what they want and let the "professionals" handle it..

And your peers will most likely be born, bred, and conditioned Californians, and most likely not Calgunners. For that reason alone I look forward to jury service.

[Blademan21]

No way. Let's say a guy is running toward me from about 15 feet away armed with a knife. Obviously scared for my life (since he is going to close that distance fast) I pull out my weapon. By the time I bring up my weapon he is about 5 feet away but instantly stops and throws his hands up in the air thus dropping the knife. I still have to shoot him?

Like another Cal-gunner posted "google the Tuller drill" and take a CCW class.

[8-Ball]

What about drawing to save someone another persons life? is that allowed?

In my state the answer is "yes". Different states have different laws, however.

When you draw to save someone else, you become that person legally. Your actions are justified if that person would have been justified had they the means.

You would be screwed if the person you are defending with lethal force instigated and escalated the altercation before you arrived...

It gets real dicey...

[Mstnpete]

If you are packing "CCW" learn to walk away from trouble.
The secret of self defense is awareness.
I would only use lethal force when life is in danger and no other way out.