A Practical Defense Question

[Matt C]

Not arguing general point - it is better to have a gun, than not. However in situation described - close range with bad guy alread has gun out and pointed - I would go for his gun first.
I believe - and it is my personnal opinion that in this case that would give me higher chance of survival than trying to shoot somebody from the pocket.

I would agree. Still the tactic has some value, maybe if the subject was 5 feet away. Again, it would be foolish to attempt is at all unless you has practiced with enough enough that you KNEW you could hit a target at that range shooting from the pocket.

[ramon]

Good points

The thing I was most concerned about is whether the jacket, leather or cloth will send the bullet sideways or something like that. Look, when you and the bride are walking in the parking structure after the last movie and some guy pops up from between cars and gets in your face and says give me your keys or I'll shoot you or kill you, what do you ninja types think you should do? I usually have my hand in the pocket, just in case. Or, do we just stop going to the movies at night? Sure, if he has a gun in your face already you have to think thru what you need to do then, but your options are more plentiful if you could shoot thru your pocket, IMHO. What do you think?

[mblat]

The thing I was most concerned about is whether the jacket, leather or cloth will send the bullet sideways or something like that. Look, when you and the bride are walking in the parking structure after the last movie and some guy pops up from between cars and gets in your face and says give me your keys or I'll shoot you or kill you, what do you ninja types think you should do? I usually have my hand in the pocket, just in case. Or, do we just stop going to the movies at night? Sure, if he has a gun in your face already you have to think thru what you need to do then, but your options are more plentiful if you could shoot thru your pocket, IMHO. What do you think?

[ramon]

Yes, I agree.

Anyone who would rather shoot someone, even a low life robbing you, than just giving up some money or a watch is suspect. However, robberies, assaults, rapes are inherently dangerous and many don't end when the loot is turned over. What I'm really looking for is, can you do it succesfully if necessay? Thanks

[Aluisious]

What if you had reason to believe he was just going to shoot you first, then take your wallet?

Options and choices are good. You can decide to use them or not. Not having them... well, you know...

What if we all spent less time worrying about impossible mall ninja scenarios on the internet?

[Aluisious]

The thing I was most concerned about is whether the jacket, leather or cloth will send the bullet sideways or something like that. Look, when you and the bride are walking in the parking structure after the last movie and some guy pops up from between cars and gets in your face and says give me your keys or I'll shoot you or kill you, what do you ninja types think you should do? I usually have my hand in the pocket, just in case. Or, do we just stop going to the movies at night? Sure, if he has a gun in your face already you have to think thru what you need to do then, but your options are more plentiful if you could shoot thru your pocket, IMHO. What do you think?

I think you need to find a movie theatre in a nicer part of town.

[Matt C]

Anyone who would rather shoot someone, even a low life robbing you, than just giving up some money or a watch is suspect. Thanks

No, thank YOU Ms. Brady.

[slick_711]

You guys watch too many freaking Steven Segall movies...

Again, let me reiterate, I'd avoid a situation like that period if at all possible, option 2 would be to turn over my wallet and be a good witness, but as someone else said, some criminals will shoot you whether you cooperate or not, and it's often possible to gauge that type of thing by paying attention to the guy's demeanor and actions. So yes, if I thought he was going to shoot me either way, I would shoot him through my jacket (I'd carry a .357 over a .38 but whatever, either way I'd shoot the guy if the situation was clearly that dire...). The point is to shoot and THEN resort to combatives, shoot him once while he's off guard, sidestep or move, and then disarm him or shoot him again.

If you think you're going to reach out and take a gun from an armed cracked out criminal who has it pointed at you, you're more naive than me for thinking I could shoot him through my coat. Either way, I have, and will continue to, practice any techniques of self defense that I feel could *ever* be useful. Then I will continue to go about not needing them.

Go look up Bill Jordan or read No Second Place Winner.

[Aluisious]

You guys watch too many freaking Steven Segall movies...

Again, let me reiterate, I'd avoid a situation like that period if at all possible, option 2 would be to turn over my wallet and be a good witness, but as someone else said, some criminals will shoot you whether you cooperate or not, and it's often possible to gauge that type of thing by paying attention to the guy's demeanor and actions. So yes, if I thought he was going to shoot me either way, I would shoot him through my jacket (I'd carry a .357 over a .38 but whatever, either way I'd shoot the guy if the situation was clearly that dire...). The point is to shoot and THEN resort to combatives, shoot him once while he's off guard, sidestep or move, and then disarm him or shoot him again.

If you think you're going to reach out and take a gun from an armed cracked out criminal who has it pointed at you, you're more naive than me for thinking I could shoot him through my coat. Either way, I have, and will continue to, practice any techniques of self defense that I feel could *ever* be useful. Then I will continue to go about not needing them.

Go look up Bill Jordan or read No Second Place Winner.

You watch too many many movies with people rigged to flying rigs.

The point of self defense is not to die.

Shooting then avoiding being shot is antithetical to proper defensive thinking.

You take cover/fight for control of his weapon FIRST and THEN try to incapacitate him.

You don't get an award in Heaven for taking someone with you.

[slick_711]

You don't get an award in Heaven for taking someone with you.

But you get one for showing up alone?

.... we're debating a very specific situation here and you're taking a cut & dry cookie cutter approach to it. If I lacked the element of surprise, or the antagonist in our little scenario did not have his gun pointed at us, or even yet raised, sure... I would try to disarm him. However, if he has his gun leveled at me, and he demands my wallet and does not know I have a gun in a pocket which could well contain my wallet...

Forgive me for believing Vegetius was correct in his thoughts that the element of surprise was too valuable to give up in the course of oh, say, reaching out to struggle with an armed man.

What's that old saying, best defense is a good offense?

Defensive tactics is something that is very situational and is going to also vary person to person. You stick to your Steven Segal combatives, and I'll stick to shooting my imaginary revolver through my imaginary leather coat.

Defensive thinking on the other hand, is the first step to winning the fight; and all of us are better off for having at least put some thought towards being ready and what we would do. It's the poor guy sitting around not ever thinking about it at all that should be worried, and because of his comfortable code clear mentality he'll be the one that gets held up.

[mblat]

.... we're debating a very specific situation here and you're taking a cut & dry cookie cutter approach to it. If I lacked the element of surprise, or the antagonist in our little scenario did not have his gun pointed at us, or even yet raised, sure... I would try to disarm him. However, if he has his gun leveled at me, and he demands my wallet and does not know I have a gun in a pocket which could well contain my wallet...

Forgive me for believing Vegetius was correct in his thoughts that the element of surprise was too valuable to give up in the course of oh, say, reaching out to struggle with an armed man.

[Aluisious]

Actually reversed logic. If gun just HAS a gun, but it isn't pointed at you - then take a shoot. Worse you miss and still will have enough time to close up and try to disarm the guy. Or take a cover. Or shoot second time. Same if you hit him - even better! He is hit and you still have a second or so for move #2 in the fight.

But if gun is actually pointed at you pulling a trigger 99.99% of the time will cause the adversary to shoot at you back. Remember, gun is pointed? Considering he is a robber, not a competition shooter finger IS on the trigger?

So you WILL get shot at and guy actually had time to aim and present a gun, so you may very well be the only one who gets shot. Not a good way to start a fight.


Besides, if you want to talk about element of surprise the biggest surprise to anyone who is holding a gun is when you close up and attempt the disarmament. But then again – I am not SWAT officer, so what do I know? May be some of LEO guys on this forum can chime in on tactics in described situation?

If you're on a bus with someone, it's not going to take you long to attempt a snatch or deflection.

Like mblat says, Mr. Thug thinks he's in control and is not expecting you to come over there and grab his gun. You stand a good chance that he will be too puzzled over what you're doing to do anything about it.

If anyone here doubts it, we can rig up an experiment involving airsoft pistols if you really want You'll be surprised how fast things happen.

[ramon]

Maxicon has settled the issue!

In his post above Maxicon directed us to two sites on the Wesson forum. There posters answered the question with actual demonstrative evidence. Thank you Maxicon and other posters.

[maxicon]

Heh! You're not going to nail the coffin closed that easily!

Seriously, I don't think this kind of thing can ever really be resolved, because it's all what-if and conjecture. On the main point, you're right, we do know that you can reliably shoot a shrouded hammer revolver from your pocket, it's unlikely to set your clothes on fire, and that semi-autos jam in this situation.

As for the situational discussion, here's what it boils down to, IMO:

- Stuff happens, and it's unpredictable. You can't count on anything going the way you expect it to. Sometimes you'll come out OK, and sometimes you won't, and it won't always be because of what you do or don't do. Sometimes you'll do something stupid, and your last thought will be "Doh!". Anybody who thinks they have it all figured out will be seriously disappointed at some point.

- You never know how you'll react in a high-pressure situation until you're in it. This is why practice and training are important - so the automatic responses take over. Most people who defend themselves by shooting an aggressor agree; we had a recent detailed post on the National Shooting Club incident here that supported that.

- No plan ever survives contact with the enemy. It's the planning that's important, not the plan that results, because planning helps your awareness of what can go wrong, and your thought processes for resolving it.

- Everyone is responsible for deciding what's important to them and planning accordingly. Do your risk assessments, and follow up on your results, or you're much more likely to have one of those "Doh!" moments at some point.

- Keep an open mind, and train like you expect to react in real life.

That's it for me!

[SgtBulldog]

Rex Applegate used to teach this method in his book, Kill or Get Killed. I'm sure there are situations that warrant this tactic, but as maxicon notes above, what is important is that you train for it. First, you must be proficient in point shooting from the hip (faster from draw to trigger pulling). Once you master that, then be ready to sacrifice a few jackets!