1911 Thoughts?

[CalNRA]

Just checking, but if the SA frames are imported don't they have to be marked showing the country of origin the same way Sig frames are marked indicating that the frame was made in Germany?

the GI frames have "IMBEL" labeling under the dust covers.

[RolinThundr]

N prefix SA frames are made at Imbel in Brazil.

Yup, any merchandise that goes/sold in the US has to have a country of origin.

Interesting, my SA 1911 has a prefix N, which apparently means the stripped frame was forged in Brazil and shipped to SA's shop in Illinois where all the rest of the work was done: fire controls, mainspring/housing, barrel, slide, etc. Now, an N prefix doesn't seem to be an adequate marking for the country of origin, so why isn't BRAZIL stamped somewhere on the frame (I couldn't find an IMBEL stamp either)?

Not arguing here, just gathering facts.

[Exiledviking]

I believe it is because only the forging is done in Brazil. All of the machining and finishing is done in the USA. The SIG is frames are machined and ready to be assembled with a slide when they are shipped out of Germany.

[psycho_klown66]

We'll so far I've seen lots of kool-aid and misinformation in this thread. Let's straighten that out. I own Kimbers, Springfield Armory, and S&W 1911s and of them all I prefer S&Ws. Let's start with the 1st misinformation before I go into why. S&W 1911s are not made in Brazil - they are made right here in the USA. It's Springfield Armory that imports their frames from South America. Second, I say koolaid because people throw out other brands without saying specifically what makes it the best thing since sliced bread. No analysis.

Now let's compare and contrast. Springfield Armory's Loaded - a darn good self defense 1911. In general they tend to be very reliable because they don't build their pistols too tight or use excessively tight chambers. That means reliability. They are also available with factory night sights. But they have their downside to. In order to pass the California drop test they went with a light firing pin and a heavy spring. That's resulted in a heavy trigger - usually in the 5.5-6lb range. On average they also lack the refined fit & finish of a Smith & Wesson, and in general - while more accurate than most shooters - they are not usually quite as accurate as a Smith or Kimber. Springers are backed by excellent customer service and a lifetime warranty.

Kimber Series II - the original Kimbers (Series I) shook up the industry by selling a factory-custom with all the bells and whistles that shooters wanted but traditionally had to pay hundreds of dollars extra to have added and tweaked by a custom smith - for about the price of a box stock rattle trap Colt. Those were good handguns. But Kimber morphed from an engineering driven company to a marketing driven company and in answer to California's drop test introduced their Series II. On the plus side Kimber builds pretty pistols in a wide variety of finishes, usually have an excellent 4-4.5lb trigger, and are usually exceptionally accurate. On the minus side they build them way too tight for out of the box reliability. An overly tight slide to frame fit for a non-fitted pistol makes for a long and expensive break in, and an overly tight chamber can sometimes lead to feeding issues.

Kimber's answer to the drop test is a Swartz style firing pin safety. A Swartz safety is something that when done well is reliable and transparent. In my opinion Kimber did not do it well. A plunger retains the firing pin until the grip safety is engaged. In Kimbers case the grip safety pushes up a skinny little pin that is easily damaged during cleaning. Easily enough that Kimber will not fix it under warranty. Kimber doesn't seem to have much faith in the rest of their pistol either because their warranty is only good for 1 year.

S&W - In general the Smith will display a bit better fit & finish than a Springer and the trigger will be a crisp 4.5-5lbs. The more modern external extractor is reliable without the maintenance of an internal extractor. On average accuracy is top notch and every bit the equal of a Kimber without being overly tight. Reliability is on par with the Springfield Armory, and the design of their firing pin safety is first rate and should be trouble free. On the down side some come from the factory with a little up and down play in the trigger. It doesn't hurt anything and is easily and cheaply replaced. I personally prefer SW1911s in stainless because the bluing can sometime be a little thin. Night sights are aftermarket only. Customer service is legendary and the warranty is for the life of the original purchaser.

Colt - they once again make good if overpriced pistol. Most models come without all of the bells and whistles that most people want. That means spending lots of money to add them later. Buy a colt if the name is worth $100 or more to you.

Bottom line you won't go wrong with a Smith & Wesson 1911. Review

What are your thoughts on the Dan Wesson Pointman 7 compared to the above?

[blackrifle242]

I just picked up a Kimber Custom II from Turners for $799.00. I looked at allot of 1911's in this price range and it was the most bang for the buck IMO.

[sholling]

What are your thoughts on the Dan Wesson Pointman 7 compared to the above?

I've only handled a couple of DWs and never shot one nor have I disassembled a DW so all I can give you are a couple basic observations. The build quality seemed very-very nice but I prefer an undercut trigger guard so a pistol will sit lower in my smallish hands and if memory serves the PM7 wasn't undercut. Since they were only available with adjustable target sights and I already had another target 1911 in mind I didn't spend a lot of time pawing it.

Just based on reputation I think that as long as it fits your hand well that somebody could do a lot worse than adding a PM7 to their collection.

[PutTogether]

What are your thoughts on the Dan Wesson Pointman 7 compared to the above?

I'll step in since I do own, or have owned, the others, and a PM7. The build quality (fit and finish) of the PM7 is impeccable. The fit and finish of the gun is a cut above the others at the same price range. Handling it, you get that "special" feeling that it was lovingly made and cared for, even though it is a production line pistol. Only the highest quality parts are used. You really have to handle one to appreciate how every little part sits exactly where it is supposed to, seams dissapear, and moving parts just "snick" into place.

It is a standard series 70 design, with no method of making it "drop safe." No firing pin block, no integrated locking system, nothing.

The trigger is bar none the best out of the box trigger. It puts my S&W, Kimbers, and Sig to SHAME with how nice its trigger is. ZERO, and I do mean ZERO creep or grit. That said....... how important is a "perfect trigger?" Sure, I can feel the difference when dry firing, and slow fire practice at the range, but for any practical purpose, all of the other triggers work just as well. They are all still good single action only triggers, its just that the DW shines at target work.

My other nitpicks are minor and specific.

• It only comes with target sights. They are of the Bo-Mar style. No problem if you want a target gun. They adjusted well and stayed in position well - but not ideal for a fighting type gun.
• The half matte, half shiny, finish. It is pretty, but the matte part is rough to the touch, and I just didn't like it. The finish itself is of a very high quality, but just not my cup of tea.
• The gun is tight. This can be a pro or a con depending on how you look at it, but every fitting on the gun was very, VERY tight.

Overall, the gun is of an amazing quality for the price, but in my mind, is strictly a target pistol. Great fit and finish, great trigger, good (target type) sights, and very tight build. Even when detail stripped no machine marks, no rough patches, just a solid, very well made gun.

[PutTogether]

Almost forgot -

Sholling is correct - the trigger guard is not undercut. Again, to me, that is no problem for a target gun, but nice (though not strictly necessary) to have on a fighting gun. Same applies to the smooth front strap.

I think it would be prettier without front cocking serrations - but that is a personal preference thing, and front serrations are what is hot right now.

The mags it comes with SUCK. This is true for almost all 1911s, but budget yourself an extra $100 to get some good wilson or mccormick mags. Again, if you buy a kimber or springfield, you'll want to replace those mags too.

So the gun does have some minors issues here and there, and it isn't perfect. Big deal, no gun is. I can NOT describe how well made and smooth the action of the whole gun is. It's like a watch, something to really behold.


Long Story Short: This is NOT my first choice of a gun to keep in the nightstand, or carry with me (though in a pinch it would certainly do). This IS the gun that I would bring to the range with the goal being to outshoot my buddies in punching paper anywhere from 7-25 yrds, and to let them hold and fondle, forcing them to get jealous about how smooth mine is compared to theirs.

[n2k]

Thanks for all the good info guys.

Just got back from the Range shooting my new Kimber Custom TLE/RL II. Awesome.

Christmas and my birthday were really good to me. I also picked up a S&W PC1911 and the best of them all a gift from my brother in law, a commemorative Navy Seal Kimber from his team from Afghanistan.