.357SIG vs 5.7x28

[AJD]

My question is not only range, but universality of the round, which means SD and hunting if SHTF.

What kind of game would you be considering hunting in those situations? If you're talking about small game such as rabbits etc and game up to the size of Coyote then the .357 Sig would probably be the better choice. If you're talking about larger game like deer and possibly others, then both would be very, very poor choices.

Contrary to what some people think, the .357 Sig is NOT a .357 Magnum in a bottleneck autoloading cartridge. The only thing it does close to the mag is match the velocity of the 125gr loads, however those rounds have different terminal ballistics. The 125gr .357Mag typicaly overexpands, fragments, and underpenetrates. The .357 Sig round in that bullet weight penetrates better, but it expands and offers terminal performance that is on par with most modern 9MM defense ammo. Yes, you get more energy but that energy is not significant enough to cause additional wounding or the mythical "shock." The .357 sig is not on par with the .357mag as far as game hunting, because it cannot be loaded equally with bullet weights of 158grains and higher which are the typical chosen weight for larger game hunting bullets in that caliber.

If you really would be needing it for larger game and SD, and you really want an autoloader, then the 10MM would be a better choice.

[rips31]

iirc, ss190 is classified as AP and only sold to leo/mil.

i heard a rumour that one could purchase such things for a 'collection,' but i don't know what that means. either way, wouldn't want to either risk or spend that much.

Saw 50 rounds for $350!!! Anyway, is it legal to own here?

[MasterYong]

IIRC it's 190... yes you can find it (occasionally), but it's $$ and tough.

Ahhhh...

I thought you meant that we just outright "can't have it" due to some law I didn't know about. I've seen you post on this forum a lot and wanted to be sure that I wasn't getting myself into some kind of trouble!

[Unit74]

Elite Ammunition makes quality round for the FiveseveN.

The ss190 is the only round designed to penetrate soft armor. How many zombies do you really think are wearing armor? None.....

Given both guns and only one hand, I'd take the 5 7. From 75 yards and average shooter can put rounds in a 10" circle. Even a competition shooter with the sig round couldn't do that.

[blackfalcon]

I have a sig P239 in .357 sig and a FN five seven. They are both good guns but both have pros and cons. The sig is much heavier than the FN. For self defense, I think they both will do just fine. Shot placement is the key anyway. For hunting, depends on what game. Since, I only have a P239 the effective range would be 25 yards. The FN can definitely reach out to 50 yards easy. Get both, carry one in each hand!! Sig for close up shots and FN for long range shots!!!

[AJD]

Btw, anyone considering the 5.7x28 for self defense should read the post by Dr. Gary Roberts on its terminal performance.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.

The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?

[qbi2001]

Just buy both, your probably going to eventually anyways.

[xr650r]

I don't relish being shot by either round. Ouchy.

[Hayashi Killian]

We cannot own AP ammunition, see PC 12320:

Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison, or in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Emphasis mine.

[Napalm Bulldog]

Long Range Pistol?

If it is for hunting(?) I guess a magnum load like the .44MAG etc. -from a long barrel revolver perhaps(?).

The.357SIG and 5.7FN are both just gimmick's designed to separate a fool from their money.

Well I guess Im a fool then. Also from what I have read a .357 goes through body armor. Also deisel trucks when cops are firing at them.

[Hayashi Killian]

It may go through body armor, but unless it's designed in such a way to do that better than a 'normal' round (ie, see ball, FMJ, JHP & AP ammo), it would be fine. The SS190 5.7 Sporting Round is not considered armor piercing, even though it might be able to, but the 5.7 AP round used in the military-grade P90 & Five-Seven is.

[saki302]

I read the SS190 (military) round wouldn't normally be considered AP since it falls under the SS109 exemption- that is, more than 50% of the projectile is not steel, but in fact is something else (plastic, brass). Thing is though, FN refuses to sell it to non LEO/mil, so the point is academic anyways. $20+ per shot? No thanks.

The SS192/SS195 civvy rounds will handily penetrate a IIA panel (tested). So will 9mm +P+ Hirtenberger (lead core FMJ) if your pistol could handle it (tested). We didn't have a Lev II panel to test, but I would bet the civilian 5.7 would still outpenetrate anything else you can get your hands on as a civilian, if that's your goal.

-Dave

PS- 7.62x25 also has pretty amazing penetration (tested), and is still dirt cheap.

[Rob Roy]

I read the SS190 (military) round wouldn't normally be considered AP since it falls under the SS109 exemption- that is, more than 50% of the projectile is not steel, but in fact is something else (plastic, brass). Thing is though, FN refuses to sell it to non LEO/mil, so the point is academic anyways. $20+ per shot? No thanks.

The SS192/SS195 civvy rounds will handily penetrate a IIA panel (tested). So will 9mm +P+ Hirtenberger (lead core FMJ) if your pistol could handle it (tested). We didn't have a Lev II panel to test, but I would bet the civilian 5.7 would still outpenetrate anything else you can get your hands on as a civilian, if that's your goal.

-Dave

PS- 7.62x25 also has pretty amazing penetration (tested), and is still dirt cheap.

Good to know, thanks. Any info about .357SIG penetration?

[ST5MF]

Well I guess Im a fool then. Also from what I have read a .357 goes through body armor. Also deisel trucks when cops are firing at them.

So does the right 9mm. What is your point?

You can drink the .357SIG "kool-aid" all you want. It is a hot 9mm and nothing more. It offers nothing over what isn't already available in 9mm. And it does so at a higher cost, lower mag capacity, faster wear on platform, increase muzzle flash etc etc.

The .357SIG is and was designed to seperate a FOOL from his money. It seems, at some level, it has succeeded in that task.

[snaggletooth]

Soooo....... thats why The SIG-Sauer P229 in .357 SIG is currently the standard issue firearm carried by agents of the United States Secret Service, the Bastrop County Texas Sheriff's Office, the North Carolina State Highway Patrol, Delaware State Police, Rhode Island State Police, Alameda County Sheriff's Office, Virginia State Police, Federal Air Marshals and the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration......