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  • #31
    retired
    Administrator
    CGN Contributor - Lifetime
    • Sep 2007
    • 9412

    I don't think sholling will mind if I paste two of his posts from another 1911 thread. I believe they are both informative and will help not only the OP, but anyone else thinking of a 1911 purchase (Which I am. I have a Milspec, but will be getting a high line 1911)


    A word on Swartz safeties. Both S&W and Kimber use Swartz safeties which is a way of preventing an accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped on the muzzle. It retains the firing pin unless the grip safety is held engaged. The difference is the design of the Swartz safety. Where S&W's is a rock solid almost indestructible design - Kimber's seems very flimsy and is easily damaged while cleaning. Easily enough that Kimber will not fix it under warranty. I absolutely trust the S&W design, but I'll watch my Series II Kimber like a hawk. I just don't have a lot lot of faith in their design. Unfortunately it's the only alloy frame CCO format 1911 on the @#$% list.
    Don't get me wrong I like Dan Wesson 1911s. If you're looking for a pistol with adjustable target sights and can afford the extra $100-300 then the DW is a good way to go and I'd definitely give it serious thought. There are just certain myths that I don't buy into.

    Myth #1: A tight slide to frame fit = 1911 bliss. The majority of a 1911's inherent accuracy comes from a tight bushing to barrel fit and a consistent barrel to slide lockup. You're aiming down the top of the slide not the frame. As long as that barrel is pointing exactly where you're aiming - each and every time - then you have an inherently accurate pistol. Again those are a function of barrel to bushing fit (holding the muzzle in place) and barrel to slide lockup (holding the breach in place).

    Still, done well a tight frame to slide fit is a very good thing for a target or match 1911 but only if properly fitted to provide a super smooth sliding surface. With a hand fitted pistol like a Baer or Ed Brown these surfaces are lapped to provide a glass smooth precision fit between one (and only one) frame and one (and only one) slide. Just keep in mind that it's a small part of the accuracy equation. Usually a hand fitted pistol will also have the barrel and bushing lapped to a glass smooth precision fit. That's the important thing!

    On the other hand Kimber (for example) produces pistols with very tight frame to slide clearances but does not hand fit. This is one of the reasons that Kimber requires that you do an ungodly long break-in before returning it for repair. They depend on you firing 300-500rds to wear down any rough spots so it can cycle reliably. All of this tightness (once smoothed out) is great as long as you can keep your weapon spotlessly clean. Any dirt can slow the slide and create reliability issues until you have time to clean. That's why old military 1911s, and even civilian Colts were loose fitting rattle traps right through the 1980s. They were loose because they were expected to function reliably in mud and filth. I personally prefer a looser, but not rattle trap loose, slide to frame fit on a defensive 1911.

    Myth #2 MIM parts will dissolve into dust. MIM is a way of injection molding metal parts. This is used for parts that cannot be done cost effectively by other methods. Like anything else MIM can be done well or it can be done poorly. Done well there is no reason why MIM parts won't last a lifetime and more than 99.99% do. This is where you have to trust in the reputation of the manufacturer. Of course all things being equal I'd rather have forged parts and forged frames instead of a MIM safety and slide stop and cast frames but in reality they both work well and until you get into more expensive pistols something will be cast or molded. S&W uses a forged frame and MIM safeties. Note that the last time I checked not all Ed Brown parts were forged. I have no clue what grade of Ed Brown parts DW uses and the last time I checked the PM7 had a cast frame but quite frankly I wouldn't lose sleep over that either.

    Myth #3 match barrels are always awesome: First what does it mean. Well in most cases it's a marketing term denoting a tight chamber. Again done well a tight chamber is a huge plus on a target or match pistol. Done poorly and the chamber can be too tight to reliably accept rounds. On a hand made semi-custom the chamber dimension tolerances can be closely watched to make sure that it's tight enough for extreme accuracy yet loose enough not to cost you a match because of failures to feed - or your life in a gunfight. On a non-hand fitted pistol where a guy that was assembling transmissions last week is assembling pistols out of a parts bin I'm a little leery of "match" barrels.

    Myth #4 Firing pin safeties: In a perfect world gun owners would never drop their weapon (risking a ND), and California would not require a drop test. Sadly the drop test is in place and there are only a limited number of ways to pass. You can go with a light firing pin and a heavy spring, and a heavy trigger to hold back the hammer - which is what Springfield Armory uses. Springer triggers are usually between 5 and 6lbs. Or you can retain the firing pin mechanically. Colt uses the later in the Series 80. I haven't taken a Series 80 apart so I won't get into that design.

    Kimber and S&W use a spring and plunger to hold the firing pin in place until you grip the grip safety. The difference is the way they engineered their systems. Kimber uses what I consider to be a very lightly built pin with little leverage to push vertically on the plunger to move it to the firing position. This produces a somewhat notchy feel to the grip safety and is easily damaged. Smith uses a beefy L-shaped lever that feels seamless and is not easy to damage accidentally. This allow a very light yet safe trigger. A production line S&W will run 4-5.5lbs depending on the luck of the draw, and most that I've felt were right around 4.5lbs. Kimbers usually run closer to 4-4.5lbs, and my hand fitted Performance Center Smith breaks right at 3.2lbs. While that's ideal for a match pistol it's about a pound lighter than I like for a self defense pistol.

    I hope this helps a bit and clarifies my statement. Your next step is to find a range that rents and try a few brands and models side by side and see what fits your hand best and what feels best to you. Finally if you decide to buy locally then try out the actual pistol that you'll be buying. Make them open a few boxes and let you try the trigger.

    EDIT: For retired, there are degrees of quality in production line pistols. A company that's mainly interested in numbers shipped might go with a lose build to produce a very reliable pistol. Another company might produce a tight build with so-so quality controls and rely on the customer to do final inspection. Other more quality driven companies might use production line parts machined to far greater than average precision and tight quality control with only a small amount of hand work. I'm under the impression that the PM7 falls into the latter category with outstanding machining and quality control but only the feedramp and finish receiving hand work. Feel free to correct me if I'm reading this wrong.
    Last edited by retired; 10-24-2009, 5:53 PM.

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    • #32
      Midian
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2008
      • 1540

      Wow that was really informative!

      I've been considering and SW 1911 as well, and this pretty much tells me I need one.
      The Answer To 1984 Is 1776
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      The free people of the world are at war with an insidious enemy:
      a global banking oligarchy determined to shipwreck the economies of the world
      and feast on its corpse.

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      • #33
        sholling
        I need a LIFE!!
        CGN Contributor
        • Sep 2007
        • 10360

        Originally posted by BossHog
        Do the newer S&W 1911s still come with the loose triggers and rear Novak sites that don't sit flush to the slide? That's the only thing that has turned me off about them.
        I haven't personally came across one with a lose trigger but I've heard that they exist. I'd check with smith and see if it's something that they fix under warranty and if not they're cheap and easy to replace. I have short stubby fingers and wind up replacing the triggers in all of my 1911s with shorties.
        "Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT--

        Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association

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        • #34
          M47_Dragon
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2008
          • 1263

          My SW1911 was loose. The SW1911DK was not.

          They both received trigger jobs and new triggers, and the gunsmith took any existing wiggle right out of 'em.


          Sholling - I met Doug Koenig a couple of months ago at the Steel Challenge. Talked to him for a few, told him that I shoot a gun with his name on it, etc. He is a really nice guy. I kept thinking "I wish there was a way to have him sign my gun." It just hit me right now - I should have asked for his autograph and then taken that to an engraver and have it etched on the slide of 1911DK. If only I'd thought of that before! Maybe next year.

          Unless his handwriting is really ugly.
          Originally posted by bigbob76
          I'm in the process of de-humping all my Glocks.

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          • #35
            sholling
            I need a LIFE!!
            CGN Contributor
            • Sep 2007
            • 10360

            Originally posted by M47_Dragon
            My SW1911 was loose. The SW1911DK was not.

            They both received trigger jobs and new triggers, and the gunsmith took any existing wiggle right out of 'em.


            Sholling - I met Doug Koenig a couple of months ago at the Steel Challenge. Talked to him for a few, told him that I shoot a gun with his name on it, etc. He is a really nice guy. I kept thinking "I wish there was a way to have him sign my gun." It just hit me right now - I should have asked for his autograph and then taken that to an engraver and have it etched on the slide of 1911DK. If only I'd thought of that before! Maybe next year.

            Unless his handwriting is really ugly.
            Remove the grip panel and have him sign the inside of the grip with a fine pt sharpie. That's one place where it will never be damaged.

            My pride and joy. She's since had a short trigger installed and thin grips.
            "Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT--

            Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association

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            • #36
              retired
              Administrator
              CGN Contributor - Lifetime
              • Sep 2007
              • 9412

              sholling, is S&W the only manufacturer that you are aware of that has those rather unique style serrations on the slide.

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              • #37
                sholling
                I need a LIFE!!
                CGN Contributor
                • Sep 2007
                • 10360

                Originally posted by retired
                sholling, is S&W the only manufacturer that you are aware of that has those rather unique style serrations on the slide.
                There could be others but as far as I know S&W only puts those on their Performance Center 1911s. The Performance Center is where their high-end hand fitted pistols are made. The equivalent of some of the more accurate Les Baer, Wilson, and Ed Brown products. Now if only I was as accurate as my pistol.
                "Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT--

                Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association

                Comment

                • #38
                  retired
                  Administrator
                  CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 9412

                  Ok, one more question of you sholling; I saw the MSRP of the Performance Center pistols from Smith. Do you have any idea how many hundreds of dollars they are off that price in the retail stores. Thanks.

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                  • #39
                    sholling
                    I need a LIFE!!
                    CGN Contributor
                    • Sep 2007
                    • 10360

                    Originally posted by retired
                    Ok, one more question of you sholling; I saw the MSRP of the Performance Center pistols from Smith. Do you have any idea how many hundreds of dollars they are off that price in the retail stores. Thanks.
                    I've seen them everywhere from $700 under MSRP to $100 over MSRP. Bud's sells one like mine (Melonite over stainless) for $1794. The only thing I see that doesn't look the same is the trigger. My trigger was silver. That's a $2599 MSRP.
                    Last edited by sholling; 10-25-2009, 2:30 PM.
                    "Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT--

                    Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      eaglemike
                      CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
                      CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 3959

                      Originally posted by retired
                      Ok, one more question of you sholling; I saw the MSRP of the Performance Center pistols from Smith. Do you have any idea how many hundreds of dollars they are off that price in the retail stores. Thanks.
                      I just took a look using Davidson's Gallery of Guns to get a quote. List price stock number 170621, MSRP $2417, OTD at one local place is just under $2100.

                      all the best,
                      Mike
                      There are some people that it's just not worth engaging.

                      It's a muzzle BRAKE, not a muzzle break. Or is your muzzle tired?

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                      • #41
                        retired
                        Administrator
                        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                        • Sep 2007
                        • 9412

                        Ok, thanks a lot guys, that really helps. I guess I need to contact Pro Force in Brea to see what kind of price I can get there. I would guess that many have heard of that place right. Hopefully it will be a few hundred off the price you guys mentioned.

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