Name the Absolute Best Auto-Reloader Available

[kcheung2]

I had a long, serious answer all typed out, but screw it. And screw my resolution about trying to be nice.

Go buy an Ammoload or something similar.

[Rhyme_merchant]

If the process was automated and unmonitored, it might be difficult to spot that the round you just loaded into your magazine and then chambered into your gun is the one that is going to blow it to pieces.

[CJ4]

single stage reloading for me... process and time/round
sizing 4sec
expand 3sec
length check 2sec
pocket 2sec
primer 3sec
powder 2sec
bullet 2sec
seating 3sec
crimping 3sec
24 sec / round, maybe 100 - 150 rounds/hour

Interesting. At my ultimate max requirement (1000/week), your process would take 6.6 hours to complete (using your max given). It seems like based on what you just posted, that if you switched to Progressive, you'd be able to cut your time in half maybe? That's still 3.3 hours per sitting (per week for me) and requires your undivided attention, no doubt(?).

I need this to be either less time consuming with physical monitoring, or with far less physical monitoring required. Any ideas? Thanks for the numbers - that's the kind of stuff I was hoping to see here.

[CJ4]

Cost prohibitive

Why and which components cause this? Thanks.

[Rhyme_merchant]

I think it has less to do about how far the tolerances could be off, and more to do about what could happen when they are. I'm sure you could get the process near perfect and consistent with an automated machine, but even a minute change to the formula can create disaster. There will aways be that risk, regardless of how consistent your machine might be.

[bubbala]

I think u tube and google will help in your equipment choice. But at least read a book, lymans has a decent primer on the subject.

[Rhyme_merchant]

Whatever you decide to do OP, I hope you have a healthy respect for the process. Be safe

[CJ4]

A lot of people will "force" you to start with the basics.

I'm going to give you exactly what you asked for but with a disclaimer: reloading is an inherently dangerous activity when you don't know what you're doing. Spend some time with a seasoned veteran and/or loading manuals, your body parts will thank you. All risks and responsibilities lie with you.

Start with minimum charge and work your way up. I encourage new reloaders to shoot and load lower pressure cartridges such as 45s.

Here's the setup you're looking for:

https://www.markvii-loading.com/Mark...rive_p_13.html

That was %$#@! beautiful. Thank you and thanks for the disclaimer. I'm not jumping into this tomorrow morning and plan to do the required homework, study, research, etc.

BTW - now that you mention it, I'd like to expand this thread to include a discussion about these statements you just made:

"...reloading is an inherently dangerous activity..."
"...your body parts will thank you..."

Never having reloaded before and without being too naive while using (hopefully) some common sense, it sounds like it might be possible to construct a reload improperly, load the round into your firearm, then pull the trigger sending the striker into the primer only to have the cartridge itself discharge either backwards through casing, or have the cartridge discharge without sending the round completely through the barrel, or some other similar nasty conclusion(?).

Whatever the "nasty" happens to be, can you isolate Causation in a high enough number of cases/instances and track it to a specific stage in the reloading process where the reloader made the mistake or error in the way they handled said process?

I'm sure there must be time tested risk mitigation protocols, steps and procedures that can help to reduce the probability of the "nasty" from becoming a reality(?) - preserving all body parts in the process.

For starters, how many things can possibly go wrong during the reloading process itself, that could result in a "nasty?" Are those things easily identifiable during the reloading process? Are all those things known to the Industry already? Are we talking about Error Types that are known, or unknown? In essence, it sounds like we are talking about QC and QA, no? How are QC and QA achieved at a high enough level by the reloader? Thanks.

[CJ4]

Is 'case prep' done under all three (3) processes: Single, Progressive, Fully Auto?

What is 'case prep' and why is it huge? What distinguishes it among the three processes?

[CJ4]

The MKIV set up does not include the press btw.

I assume you meant MK 7. Yes, indeed. I did read the fine print:

You need to do wayyyyyyy more homework.

Of course, that's why I am here. Being here merely starts the process for me.

When you do you will see the merit in what many in this thread are encouraging you to do.

Yes. The 'Ab inito' approach. I understand that's where many people come down here.

Or just buy all my reloading stuff. You wouldn't need to buy supplies of any kind for some time.

Curious. Why would you want to sell all your reloading stuff? Are you giving up on Firearms in the State of California, or are you moving out of the State of California, where access to ammunition is not truncated and the ammunition itself is not being sold at price gouging prices?

The MKIV is a slick set up.

The link given was of the MK 7 1050 Pro Autodrive. Is there an MK 4 made by a different OEM?

But you still need to fill it back up with the consumables. At least every hundred rounds. There is no such thing as a press you can just walk away from.

It seems like it can run well beyond 100 rounds before needing to be resupplied:

[CJ4]

I cannot figure out my Lee Progressive. It is terrible.

That's part of what bothers me about not going Automated. I would think that with the Automated path, the OEM engineers built something that works within specific specifications, as long as it is operated that way. That is part of the reason we pay for the "automated" technology.



I have a Lee Turret Press that I have used for a long time. It is good for learning. I moved up to a Dillon 550B after that.[/QUOTE]

Manual Indexing (among other things) is precisely what I'm trying to get beyond having a need to do. However, I certainly do appreciate your input here and I'm glad you moved on to something that works for you.

How many rounds can you reload per hour with your Dillon 550B, by the way?

[CJ4]

How long (400/week) or how many rounds to break even $4000 mark-7 setup?

At $0.25 per round OEM manufactured, it would take 40 weeks of buying on the street to cover. So, full recovery in under 76% of one year. Or, said another way, after one full year, approximately 30% of the MK 7 setup (as you have listed it here) would be returned on top of the 100% recovery. If my math does not fail me. Year two would see 130% return minus the cost of consumables. After that, she's well on her way to being more horse than feed.

[CGT80]

Single stage is painfully slow. The dillon 550 and 650 are huge upgrades from single stage, although I modified my 550 to feed rifle brass as well and I wouldn't use a 550 without a case feeder.

The 1050 is the only choice for someone who has money and wants a machine that is built like a tank......well, until that Revolution press.....I think that was the name. I didn't know it existed.

For 9mm or 40 cal, 100 rounds of ammo can be done by hand in 3 minutes with a mr. bulletfeeder. That is a tiring rate and it assumes there are no hang ups. Some of my 40 brass has primers that separate and leave part behind in the pocket. One new primer blew up, and I felt the resistance before it went off, but pushed it anyway. Luckily, it didn't blow the whole stack.

The Revolution was rated at 3500 rounds per hour. That is only 10 minutes on the machine for the 400 or so rounds you want per week......that is if everything goes as planned. Changing from 9mm to 40 cal on my 1050 is a 20 minute job. Last time, it was a couple hours, but I stripped it down to the frame and cleaned and lubed the bearings and everything. It was fun.

I'm also the kind of guy that built his own automated bullet casting machine and I'm in the middle of building an automated bullet sizing machine, from scratch. The plc control unit for the casting machine was purchased from another boolit caster. I don't know anything about plc units or adrino, but could have learned it, given enough time.

https://youtu.be/KNymkXBbVPs

I'm not an engineer, although it would really help with what I do. I have been fixing and building crap since I was a kid. The casting machine is a rough copy of a commercial machine but I have only seen pictures and videos of a few originals and a few copies. The only one I have seen in person is my own. The sizing machine is something I dreamed up after seeing others add power/automation to existing single stage presses or star sizing presses. A day or two after I came up with a plan in my head, another cast boolits member sent me a link for a video of what I thought of. Another member built it a year earlier but I hadn't seen it and it was almost scary with how close it was. In my head, I debated either using a mechanical linkage or just running an air cylinder for a bullet slider and timing the two cylinders to not crash.

The advantage I have, is that I have reloaded and cast boolits for 25 years. It is a process I am very familiar with and I have spent many hours doing it and learning what can go wrong and how to fix it. There is some art, but most of it is science and just technical stuff. Jumping in the deep end will come with growing pains, but you will either figure it out and learn fast and put up with the issues, or you can learn real slow and have the same issues.

While I like casting and reloading, I don't always want to do it. Batches work best for me. On the 1050, I will walk by and load a hundred or so and then come back later. With the other presses and casting, that didn't work so well. The loads I run on the 1050 are tested and my go to bulk loads, most of the time. When I wanted to make test loads, I took the press to the range and did the ladder loads right there, until I found all the data I wanted and loads I liked. These are for the same sort of shooting you are doing, but not nearly as focused as your routine.

What will be best is to take the time to work up loads that are good for your guns and come up with a standard bulk load, and then set aside a few hours when you can to do batches. Maybe even an entire day to load a year's worth of ammo.

Somehow, hand loading is not like pulling a box of factory ammo, where it will work in most guns. Even factory ammo isn't perfect for every gun. It will take a little work to find out what bullets and powder you like, and what feeds properly. Some pistols have more taper and will take longer seating depth and some are shorter. Some have very tight chambers and case sizing as well as crimp will be very critical. Components can sometimes be hard to find. You will want something that is easy to get in bulk and order in large lots. Auto ordering probably won't happen for you, but you can go on the internet and order as needed in a few minutes or find a supplier face to face.

The quantity you want to load isn't really that high, but the time you want to spend doing it is very short. Serious match shooters can easily exceed your numbers. The Brian Enos forum is better suited to what you want to know, in some ways, than calguns. The Cast boolits forum also has extensive info on loading and casting. Even if you don't cast, google search that forum when you have specific questions. The detail on that site is great.

If I was in your shoes OP:

If you haven't already, watch some videos on single stage reloading to learn each specific step of the process. Read some text on the same. You need a basic understanding of what is going on.

Find a mentor to spend at least a few hours showing you the process on a dillon 1050. Yes, skip all the other crap out there. With your knowledge, money, and need just focus on single stage (if you even spend any time using one) and then learn how the 1050 works. Start with station 1 and learn each step and then to to station 2. That is how I setup a new toolhead and that is how I work up loads. I do use the 1050 as a single stage when needed. If a real single stage is a must, I will use the Hollywood Universal multi turret unit that I learned on.

Go with either a 1050 or the Revolution press. If you can swing the money, the revolution looks like a big advantage over the 1050, but I have not used an auto press.

9mm ammo costs me 11 cents per round to load. Bear creek moly coated bullets and range pickup brass keeps the price down. Use jacketed bullets if you become a pro and every little bit counts for your scores.

What area do you live in, or what ranges do you shoot at? I'm in SoCal and shoot at West End, a private range. This is a good area for the shooting sports.

Welcome to the dark side. At first I thought you were a troll, but with your background, you might pick this up pretty quick and do well, if you are good practicing mechanics and not just book smart.

[CJ4]

I don't believe the equipment you want exists. Most machines need an operator present to insure it is running properly.

Many of us approach the task of reloading as a hobby that supports our hobby of shooting.

Does something like the MK 7 change any of that for you? If it produces in excess of 1000 reloads in an automated fashion (if that's sincerely true) in under an hour, then that more than exceeds my needs of 1000 rounds per week (max). All of it automated.

So, I'm guessing here that I'm going to have to test the OEM's statements about what it considers "automated" vs "manual" in relationship to "monitoring" and get some real world definition of what "monitoring" an "automated" reloader actually looks like.

I don't mind being present and onsite. I just don't need to orbit about the machine while those 1000+ rounds are being reloaded. It least, I'm hoping that to be the case anyway. That's the whole point, of course.

My other option is to buy OEM off the street, or have an online vendor ship to an FFL. Either way, each purchase I make gets tagged, tracked, monitored and queried in a relational database for possible "suspicious buying patterns." Of that I have absolutely no doubt.

Big Data Mining brought to bear on your ammo purchases each time you lay down your credit card. No doubt.

[CJ4]

That's $5019 without reloading dies, case cleaning equipment, etc.

Yes, it is an initial investment with its own yield curve. According to your numbers, it would be a little more extended beyond the other projection, but well covered as time progresses including all consumables. From a purely economic standpoint, the numbers certain work out for me.

I'm very concerned about the experience that people have had on this forum with using such equipment and whether they think it has been reliable enough for them to warrant it as a good investment.

One comment: my dad is an engineer (NASA JPL), and my brother is an engineer (Apple). I have met many engineers and I'm familiar with the personality type.

I bet both your Dad and Brother are really cool people to hand around. Its just a matter of getting to a point where you understand the essential nature of a thing, then determining whether or not it fits and how to implement it. I'm sure both your Dad and Brother would appreciate that.

Engineers are very smart and well-educated. But they think their intelligence and education is easily transferable to any technical area outside their area of expertise.

I think one becomes knowledgeable because they spend the time, energy and effort in developing the skill, knowledge and expertise required. Some of it is talent, but much of it is desire. For example, I'm an aerospace engineer who developed technology for use in the international financial markets. Go figure. Completely different areas of expertise having nothing to do with each other. But, it took many years of research and study to develop the ability to understand an industry where I had no prior experience or natural talent.

It took desire, passion and commitment to seeing it through. That's the secret to success in life. Winning is not always given to the high IQ, but to those who have the sincere desire succeed and refuse to accept failure as their ultimate outcome - taking personal responsibility to educate themselves along the way. I'm certain you Father taught you this already.

They think that if they are - for example, an aerospace engineer - that something like reloading is child's play and they should be able to skip the beginning and intermediate steps and go right to the advanced stuff.

If reloading absolutely requires beginning and intermediate steps, then those steps are what I will take. Mine is to find out whether or not those steps are indeed absolutely necessary, or whether they are already included in an Automated System, because that system has been engineered to remove such necessity.

The very definition of automation means the aggregation of sub-functions, sub-routines and sub-processes, as well as their integration into a seamless operation having specific Input resulting in specific and expected Output. I'm trying to find out just how "automated" the Automated reloading technology turns out to be under the covers. If it is truly an automated operation, then it should include those basic and intermediate functions as logically integrated sub-functions with inherent risk removed from each sub-function sufficient to allow the operation to be wholly automated. Else, it is not truly automated and is something of a hybrid process.

Either way, that is why I am here - trying to figure this stuff out.

There is no amount of warnings that can persuade them otherwise, so I won't waste my time.

So, here is my question for you. Have you purchased or had access to an Automated Reloader? If so, can you describe how it was an improvement over using a Single or Progressive reloader in terms of the steps or processes that it enabled you to skip, mimic or reproduce without input from you? Thanks.