...

[Beendare]

I got a chuckle on the original post. Does anyone still believe KE is a good representation of potential penetration? Not!

I have a significant amount of experience with Alaskan bears as I hunt Ak most every year along with states in the lower 48 inc Montana grizz country.

I carry a SW 629 classic with the BB 305gr hardcast loads. if I was buying a dedicated big bear gun now it would be the SW 329PD .44 still on the roster. I have friends with the 10mm...love the way they shoot. They are a pretty potent weapon with the hardcast loads ...but then I've bumped a 1,000 lb brownie at close range....anything less than a bazooka gives you that, "Maybe I should have brought more gun" feeling. They are essentially a VW beetle with fur...actually maybe a little bigger!

I do think the heavy hardcast loads are a game changer...the only way to go for stopping big predators, IMO. I also think its kidding yourself to think you will get more shots than a revolver can deliver....many cases of guys with pistols that never got a shot off...a charge happens lightning fast. So the other key is being quick on the draw and accurate with your first shot.

I've thought about 10mm...and .45 super for big bears ..... but the thought doesn't last long!

Blackies don't bug me....I don't carry when bowhunting any of the other western states [except southern AZ]...I might start though.

[cvigue]

.... if I was buying a dedicated big bear gun now it would be the SW 329PD ....

That one is on my list. The problem I have with most other 44mag pistols is that they are really big for the punch they pack. That S&W is an exception, 25 ounces and all, pretty amazing. A Glock 20 is about the size of a typical 4" revolver and about the weight of one even smaller.

If I'm going to be packing something bigger, it's gonna be that Smith, or a 454 or something.

Steel 44 mag? Nah.

WRT 'more shots', depends. For a big bear, sure, 3-4 is probably all you get at most. How about a pack of feral dogs? We had that in Central Oregon. Not everything dangerous is a single apex predator.

[Oceanbob]

You Bunch of Nanceys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ALOI63X_CE

..... but I seem to recall the Alaska fish and game people putting out ... that the 38spl had the power to penetrate a polar bears skull ...... under what I assume to be ideal conditions ........and I am sure a bit more umph would not hurt any.

By the way ... anyone care to show me how to post a utube video that isn't just a link but the actual picture of the video like I see so many doing...... thanks

Copy the letters/numbers to the right of the last / =

Touch the YouTube icon above. Paste the copy in the middle.

Bob

[WMG]

You tube icon?
I don't seem to be finding that

[WMG]

Copy the letters/numbers to the right of the last / =

Touch the YouTube icon above. Paste the copy in the middle.

Bob

Thanks ... found it in the advanced section.

[AKexpat]

You Bunch of Nanceys

but I seem to recall the Alaska fish and game people putting out ... that the 38spl had the power to penetrate a polar bears skull ...... under what I assume to be ideal conditions .......

Lived in Alaska for 35 years and those folks are, for the most part, politically correct.

They live in controlled conditions and have much leeway insofar as their opinions and they feel entitled to them, and they do not want anyone to contest them. They do lab tests on carcasses and consider that a real world assumption.

Have a good day!

Jim

[CandG]

FWIW:

In this story from last August, a guy shot a mature grizzly 5 times with a 10mm. It was later determined that 2 of those shots were fatal (brain & chest).

That means, statistically, each shot fired had a 40% chance of being fatal. I realize that's a small sample size, but I don't think it can be ignored. One fatal hit could be lucky, but TWO? I'm guessing the other 3 hits probably landed in non-vital areas, and in those cases a bigger cartridge doesn't change much.

Of course, shortly someone will come along and point out that the above story is invalid for some reason or another (1st rule of CalGuns is: always get in the last word), but I figured I'd post it anyways. Flamesuit on.

[ECVMatt]

I took my 20 to Alaska and like other have said, saw many locals toting the same gun. Having said that, next time I will be carrying a large caliber DA revolver. I like my Alaskan or my Smith 69. My biggest issue with an autoloader is shooting it through a tent at night. During the day I had my rifle which was much more powerful than a handgun, but most of our bear encounters were at night. I have shot Glocks for the past 25 years and love them, but don't feel comfortable leaving them upholstered in a tent at night.

I would much rather have 5 or 6 rounds of .44 or bigger in a simple point and pull DA revolver than worry about trying to unholster a G20 while being bitten.

I am a solid 10mm guy for hunting, but for rural AK, I think a revolver is a better choice for me.

In the end, whatever gun you feel most comfortable with is probably the best choice. Letting folks on the internet pick your firearm is always a bad idea.

[cvigue]

have shot Glocks for the past 25 years and love them, but don't feel comfortable leaving them upholstered in a tent at night.

1. Why?
2. Here:

[k1dude]

Have you ever used a 10mm or a .44 Mag on an animal?

I lived, hunted, hiked, and fished in Alaska for 35 years (1972-2007). I now live in "benign" WA State.

Your first mistake was believing all of the Bravo Sierra at Wild West Guns. They are in the business of promoting their product and their philosophies.

Your second mistake was thinking that a 10mm, .44 Mag, or.460 Rowland would be adequate protection against a brown/grizzly, and I read your post to believe you are convinced of that.



I have never known any Alaska hunting guide to go into the bush without a large rifle, and they, the bush pilots, and the "locals" (what locality, sir?) had them as backup/last-ditch protection, not primary guns.

When fishing the Kenai River or Susitna River (and feeder creeks) for salmon I carried a Super Blackhawk 3-screw 7-1/2" with 5 rounds of handloaded 300 grain hard cast using H-110, hammer down on the empty chamber, in a Bianchi shoulder holster, under an open jacket for rain protection. That was a bare minimum as far as protection is concerned.

The first line of protection was to give the brown bear all of your fish and then retreat quickly/post haste/run!. On the other hand, don't run from a black bear as they will readily give chase: present yourself as large as you can, yell at them like you would at an unruly big dog, and then shoot if need be.

If I was in the bush and not fishing, I would either take my Rem 870 12 ga. 20" with 2 round mag extension loaded with BRI .50 cal saboted slugs (preferred) or my Marlin 1895 .45-70 with handloaded 300 or 400 grain semi-jacketed soft-points with velocities somewhat lower than .458 Winchester (Speer Manual #11) when moose hunting, and, in a light rifle that's not fun to shoot (even though I had installed a shotgun ventilated recoil pad in place of the hard factory buttplate). Lever guns are fast but the 870 is even faster, especially for an old skeet shooter like me.

The idea behind bear protection is to be aware of the bear and type of bear, and what precautions and actions to take.

I have taken a small (200#) black bear with the .44 Mag when it came into camp smelling the moose meat my hunting partner had taken and was hanging high in the trees near sundown. It stood on its hind legs and I shot it in the lung/heart area and it dropped like a rock. It happened up in the Talkeetna Mountains above Wasilla years ago, and since it was no where near a salmon stream, the meat was perfect, almost like fatty dark pork. Great on the grill. As my partner was a taxidermist, he wanted the hide (I did not) and he spent the next two nights/days skinning it up, to include the tedious skinning of the claws and the skull.

Sorry, I digress.

If you think for one second that you will be able to accurately place anywhere near 15 rounds of 10mm into the frontal shoulder area of a charging bear, with its head low and no chance of penetrating the skull, I'd like some of what you are smoking.

Forget all of the gun shop BS. They are in business to sell guns, period. Wild West Guns makes (or made) a nice takedown Marlin .45-70 back then, but they were very proud of it and it cost a small fortune to buy. Unless one wanted to stow it in a Super Cub, no reason for it.

Just my $.02 worth.

Been there and done that, sir.

Jim

Yes, I've hunted with both 10mm and .44. I know what they can do. Maybe your shot placement wasn't too good?

I've been hunting/fishing in Alaska from 1965 - 2016, and still go.

Like I said, I used to carry a large revolver until about 10 years ago, which I noticed is when you stopped going to Alaska. Yes, the guides, locals, and pilots were mostly carrying 10mm Glocks. If you went today, you'd see the same. Are there still some holdouts with big revolvers? Of course! But I notice most of them that do are about to retire.

Just because there's a guide performing overwatch with a rifle doesn't mean the guides on the river with you are unarmed. They're not. They have mostly gone to 10mm Glocks in my experience. Even the overwatch guide with the rifle would still have a 10mm in a holster. They're the ones with first hand knowledge and all the stories that go along with the choice. Many second hand, many first hand.

I suggest you read what many LEO agencies in the Arctic (worldwide) use for a sidearm. Yup. 10mm Glocks. They use them effectively to put down big bears with no problem.

I had already heard all the stories about 10mm Glocks in Alaska for about 5 years before I bought one myself. Wild West Guns wasn't trying to sell me a damn thing, they just gave me the straight scoop. They told me to come back to Alaska next time with a 10mm brought from home.

I suggest you try standing waist deep in a river while fly fishing with a rifle or shotgun. Good luck with that. Save the shotgun for camp.

And yes, I've even been charged by a big brown. Could I have gotten the shot off or even 5 shots off? Damn straight I could have. I also suggest you read up on modern bullets. Penetrating a bear skull with a 10mm isn't as difficult as you think.

I also suggest you read about the guy who recently shot a huge brown in Alaska in self defense. He used a 10mm and got something like 5 shots off as he was falling backwards. Shot off his toe with the last shot. Only hit the bear twice, but still killed it DRT. One bullet in the skull, and one bullet in the chest. Hell, he wasn't even using hard cast or Xtreme Penetrators. IIRC, he was using hollow points.

[ElvenSoul]

You guys so worried about bears. I believe there have been more wolf attacks lately.

[cvigue]

If you think for one second that you will be able to accurately place anywhere near 15 rounds of 10mm into the frontal shoulder area of a charging bear, with its head low and no chance of penetrating the skull ....

In this story from last August, a guy shot a mature grizzly 5 times with a 10mm. It was later determined that 2 of those shots were fatal (brain & chest).

Huh, how about that. I guess no chance isn't what it used to be.

[Snapping Twig]

I have read a ton of articles and forum posts all over the internet for years where everyone and their brother claimed that the minimum caliber one should carry when there is a concern for dangerous game is a .44 mag revolver and that the 10mm was barely more powerful than an .40 auto.

After doing more research I started comparing the ballistic capabilities of both rounds and what I found on the Ballistics By the Inch website was surprising to say the least and led me to the reason I am now a 10mm fan. I am also a huge fan of the .454 Casull out of short snubbie barrels but more on that later.

The first set of charts below shows the ballistic capabilities both in Feet per Second as well as Kinetic Energy of the .44 Magnum:

.44 Magnum



10mm Auto


As you can see the 10mm with a 6 inch barrel with the right bullet can propel a bullet to up to 1500 Feet per second, only one tested .44 magnum round out of the various tested was able to beat that speed with the same length barrel.
Many people will tell you that Kinetic Energy is more important than feet per second and when you are hitting a large snarling animal such as a black bear that would be true, you want the round to have as much energy as possible for maximum penetration, again referencing the chart you will see that the average 44 Magnum round fired from a 4" barrel has between 600-800 in foot lbs. If you up your 10mm Auto to a 6" Barrel you can obtain....between 600-800 foot lbs of energy.

With all that said I have decided to change up my .44 mag 3" revolver to a Glock 29SF with a 6" barrel, if you compare a 3" 44 mag to a 6" 10mm, the 44 mag pales in comparison from every metric listed in the testing results shown in the above charts . Sure you can carry a 6 shot long barrel revolver that weighs a ton with a super long barrel, but my question is if you can obtain these types ballistics out of a package this small and light why not consider it? For comparison a 6" 44 mag S&W model 629 weighs 45 ounces, a glock 26 sf weighs 27 ounces and when you are hiking weight and size can play an important role in your gear selection.




If I am going to be in area with significantly more dangerous game like Alaska I will carry my Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull. To put into perspective why, a short barreled .454 Casull Alaskan has a significant 40-percent energy advantage over a 7.5" long-barreled .44 Magnum. The 2 1/2-inch barreled Ruger Alaskan spits out the .454 with an average velocity 1497 fps with an absolutely bone crushing 1346 ft-lbs energy.

Want to up your game?

Turn in that pea shooter 454 for the 480 version.

400g .475 bullet at 1200fps makes a statement.

[CandG]

I also suggest you read up on modern bullets. Penetrating a bear skull with a 10mm isn't as difficult as you think.

After reading through some of the posts this thread, many people appear convinced that grizzly skulls are made out of 15-inch-thick tool steel, and all you can do is shoot it in the eyeball with a .50bmg and hope that's enough to scare it away

Meanwhile in another thread, someone is saying never use FMJ 9mm as a defensive round because it will go straight through the bad guy, 4 walls, and 2 cars before it stops.

[Canucky]

My BIL has a mine in Alaska. One year a bear decide to make the claim his. He asked at the local store what firearms they had. He wanted one that held the most rounds. Family joke is he's a terrible shot. Clerk suggested a 12 gauge and not to worry about capacity.He said you'll only need one round cause chances are if it's charging you? You will only probably get one shot off. He tends to hang out with friends that are slower than him.