Off-roster profiteering?

[Rhyyke]

I have a confession. At the last minute I bought an HK45, with the intention of flipping it for a profit after SSE was over.

But then I made the mistake of shooting it. Now she's my forever .

[Cal10]

It's a free market with limited supply and growing demand. There is nothing abnormal about it.

I have to disagree, having a roster assures there is NO free market. It's been two years since any new model semi auto pistols have been approved to the roster. In a free market all new models by any maker would be available to purchase.

You're applying free market economics to a regulated market. It's oxymoronic!

[lastinline]

You really think there are people out there that don't want the roster to go away? There is no one out there that can bring in that many off roster guns that it would be profitable for them to do that. You make an lot of assumptions.

You don't know my neighbor down the road. He, his wife, and two adult children had been purchasing one new handgun per month, some on-roster, but a lot of SSE guns as well. With just over fifty (50) NIB handguns filling up a couple of safes, they are waiting to make a hefty profit, and are praying that the roster be made to include all rifles and shotguns as well. They love the roster, are not gun people, and have zero interest in the 2nd. Even if the roster goes away, given time they will still make money. They understand how careful purchasing can lead to big gains down the road, and have the time and inclination to wait it out. They made a killing selling classic cars, musical instruments, other antiques, and real estate. Just more shrewd investors looking to get into something "odd".

[champu]

Correct. It s a free market in which the supply of goods is limited or constrained. Supply contstaints happen all the time; by nature, weather, government fiat, production limitations, seasonal considerations etc...

The fact that prices are not set and sellers are not coerced to sell and buyers are not forced to buy is the essence of a free market.

Damn ..." Waay too many gun owners without any education in or understanding of economics... And I suspect many other things too...

I think it's one of those unwritten rules of the internet that any forum post that laments how poor everyone's understanding of something is will invariably demonstrate a misunderstanding of that thing.

Artificial manipulation of prices, supply, and demand absolutely does NOT need to be direct for a market to be considered "controlled" or "regulated" rather than "free." The fact that supply and demand runs its course and you reach a new equilibrium after the government moved the supply curve with its laws doesn't negate the fact that the government moved the supply curve with its laws. It's THAT action that makes it most certainly NOT a free market.

[idntwn2]

I have to disagree, having a roster assures there is NO free market. It's been two years since any new model semi auto pistols have been approved to the roster. In a free market all new models by any maker would be available to purchase.

You're applying free market economics to a regulated market. It's oxymoronic!

Negative. The market is totally driven freely. That CA has restrictions on what is considered salable by an FFL vs what is available in the free market is not related. You may own any non-rostered handgun in CA, with a few exceptions.

When CA says that you may not sell your off-list gun to anyone, then the market ceases to be free. It ceases altogether.

Furthermore, transferring an asset at a lesser price than what the market will bear, regardless of circumstance is poor business practice and will result in failure of that business at some point.

Profit is not evil. It is what drives the economy.

Now then, the safe list is complete BS and provides for a prior restraint argument in my opinion. It needs to be struck down as unconstitutional.

[liamettocs]

I think it's one of those unwritten rules of the internet that any forum post that laments how poor everyone's understanding of something is will invariably demonstrate a misunderstanding of that thing.

Artificial manipulation of prices, supply, and demand absolutely does NOT need to be direct for a market to be considered "controlled" or "regulated" rather than "free." The fact that supply and demand runs its course and you reach a new equilibrium after the government moved the supply curve with its laws does negate the fact that the government moved the supply curve with its laws. It's THAT action that makes it most certainly NOT a free market.

Of course, you're right, up to a point. The problem with this reasoning, however, is that it proves too much. Government regulation is so omnipresent that it affects the market for almost every good. Let's take eggs. You can buy eggs at the supermarket, the farmers market and the corner convenience store. All sorts of eggs, all at different prices. You're free to buy any of them or none. Is that a free market?
Applying your reasoning, it is not, because recent California law requires that egg-laying chickens be raised in certain minimum size enclosures. This law also applies to eggs imported from out-of-state. This increases the cost of production, which is reflected in the price of eggs. Have you noticed the price of eggs in California has increased by more than $1/dozen recently. Does this mean the market for eggs is not a "free market?" Perhaps, but if so, then there are precious few free markets using your strict definition, because the government regulates almost everything that is bought and sold in some way, shape or manner.

[bonusweb]

You don't know my neighbor down the road. He, his wife, and two adult children had been purchasing one new handgun per month, some on-roster, but a lot of SSE guns as well. With just over fifty (50) NIB handguns filling up a couple of safes, they are waiting to make a hefty profit, and are praying that the roster be made to include all rifles and shotguns as well. They love the roster, are not gun people, and have zero interest in the 2nd. Even if the roster goes away, given time they will still make money. They understand how careful purchasing can lead to big gains down the road, and have the time and inclination to wait it out. They made a killing selling classic cars, musical instruments, other antiques, and real estate. Just more shrewd investors looking to get into something "odd".

Listen when lost control of the Californian government to illegals/amnesty (thanks Reagan) and their anchor babies. Unless they decide to vote pro second amendment its out our hands. Minus court cases. Its a variable we can't control, so we can't factor it into the discussion of free market.

Its like trying to say food production is not free market because cold weather effects supply. Its an act of god, and like the roster, weather comes down from mount Olympus/Sacramento.

There is nothing wrong with any Californian safe being full of non-roster handguns, that will make on the market. They will wait for a shortage, and then start selling them. Which sounds bad but is actually great, if you really want to buy one.

Regardless of their motivation or how they feel about the roster (presumably they only get one vote) its one safe full of supply that would not exist otherwise.
Now if you tell me the donate to anti 2nd amendment candidates, that would be a mitigating factor.

But generally, a safe full of hand guns do more good for the availability than the bad the average single campaign contributor could do.

[Mister.E]

You don't know my neighbor down the road. He, his wife, and two adult children had been purchasing one new handgun per month, some on-roster, but a lot of SSE guns as well. With just over fifty (50) NIB handguns filling up a couple of safes, they are waiting to make a hefty profit, and are praying that the roster be made to include all rifles and shotguns as well. They love the roster, are not gun people, and have zero interest in the 2nd. Even if the roster goes away, given time they will still make money. They understand how careful purchasing can lead to big gains down the road, and have the time and inclination to wait it out. They made a killing selling classic cars, musical instruments, other antiques, and real estate. Just more shrewd investors looking to get into something "odd".

So, they treat it like a business. Assuming that they averaged $700/gun, that's a $35,000 investment. Who knows how long it will take to reach ROI? Who knows what will happen to the roster? Maybe the roster will fall apart, that's the risk they're taking.

It's their money/risk. I don't know why people don't want to accept free-market, capitalism, and economics as an answer when that is exactly what's happening. You know what also happens in the free-market? People lose their shirt trying to turn a profit. People dictate the price based on what they're willing to pay. The gun is on the counter, not to your head.

[riderr]

I have to disagree, having a roster assures there is NO free market. It's been two years since any new model semi auto pistols have been approved to the roster. In a free market all new models by any maker would be available to purchase.

You're applying free market economics to a regulated market. It's oxymoronic!

It has nothing to do with the fact, that you (as a buyer) is free to meet with Joe (the seller) and discuss the price of the off-roster gun you want to buy. Government don't step into the negotiation process. You have to follow some formal steps after both of you agree on the price, since the guns are regulated. However, Uncle Sam doesn't tell you or Joe what the price should be.

[lastinline]

So, they treat it like a business. Assuming that they averaged $700/gun, that's a $35,000 investment. Who knows how long it will take to reach ROI? Who knows what will happen to the roster? Maybe the roster will fall apart, that's the risk they're taking.

It's their money/risk. I don't know why people don't want to accept free-market, capitalism, and economics as an answer when that is exactly what's happening. You know what also happens in the free-market? People lose their shirt trying to turn a profit. People dictate the price based on what they're willing to pay. The gun is on the counter, not to your head.

Exactly.
Now why do some folks get so upset by all this? Perhaps they get all emotional because they are treating something many see as as nothing more than a hobby too seriously.

[Mister.E]

^^^ Indeed.

It's funny to see people rag on others, "don't you know about supply and demand, fool?" and then describe the situation as a "free market" in the same or next sentence.

It's not a free market. That's the point.

Stocking up and selling to those who did not on items that are not necessities is not "evil" or "gouging" but if you do it to the point where you lose your disgust for the people who put the roster and the rules on it in place, or you find yourself rubbing your hands together when the new bills come out each year then you are being a scumbag.

I think most flippers are actually "true gun people" though, and if the roster were gone tomorrow they would shrug and say, "well I lost a way to make a buck but more important is we got some of our rights back."

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+free+market+economy

sure sounds like a free market to me

[bonusweb]

I have to disagree, having a roster assures there is NO free market. It's been two years since any new model semi auto pistols have been approved to the roster. In a free market all new models by any maker would be available to purchase.

You're applying free market economics to a regulated market. It's oxymoronic!

Every market is regulated, so in the real world, there is no pure free market.

Free market is all about supply and demand, competition. That's great.

Unregulated capitalism is really not that great, it leads us to monopolys, Oligopolies and government cronyism. (This is definitely not free market.) Like we currently having problems with in the USA.

So capitalism does not always equal free market. Because it often ends with lack of competition and robber barons.


An oligopoly is a market structure in which a few firms dominate. When a market is shared between a few firms, it is said to be highly concentrated. Although only a few firms dominate, it is possible that many small firms may also operate in the market

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_%28industrialist%29

In social criticism and economic literature, robber baron became a derogatory term applied to wealthy and powerful 19th-century American businessmen that appeared in North American periodical literature as early as the August 1870 issue of The Atlantic Monthly[1] magazine. By the late 1800s, the term was typically applied to businessmen who used what were considered to be exploitative practices to amass their wealth.[2] These practices included exerting control over national resources, accruing high levels of government influence, paying extremely low wages, squashing competition by acquiring competitors in order to create monopolies and eventually raise prices, and schemes to sell stock at inflated prices.

[bountyhunter]

So what's more fair? Charging higher prices so that the people who value the gun most get it?

On that subject, I was going by the "for sale" section and saw a Valtro offered for $8750. I mention it because it's a new world record, the highest one I had seen before was $6000.

So, clearly, inflation has set in at the Valtro factory. Oh wait.... they haven't built any in years......


I am simply pointing out that there is no law that says a person has to gouge the price to the max just because "free market" says they can. Free market can be good or bad, if you are trying to get a gallon of gas and a hurricane has knocked out all the stations, the guy selling gas for $100/gallon is just using the free market system. And people buying up all the ammo even though they don't even own a gun and scalping it on Craig's list for 10X list price are just using the free market. And when Rockefeller drove all of his competitors out of business by selling oil below cost until they went bankrupt, then jacked prices up to the sky, he was just using the free market.

The point is, each seller decides how slimy they want to be. It's a personal choice. If the choice is to always charge the max, that's the choice.

[Champagne-N-Beer]

I am sorry, but no - it is not a free market. It is a controlled market.

[bountyhunter]

I am sorry, but no - it is not a free market. It is a controlled market.

It's a free market warped by governmental regulations which boosts prices on some goods.