Fix The Site Or Shut It Down

[davidj]

So you're happy with mediocrity?? stfu,,,,,,,,FIX IT would be the common sense approach. You sound just like a Democrat defending Biden's term. smh

I get it, you are transitioning and it's your time of the month. After a week or so you will feel better and be less cranky-angry-irrational. In the mean time do yourself a favor and find somewhere else to be so bitc**

[Nefarious]

They've done studies, you know. 20% of the time, it works every time.

This is GOLD right here LMAO!!!!

[TopshotIDF]

It slowly getting better what I can't figure out if there is a search in specific forum like hand guns I could search specific city or manufactures or gun model and narrow down the listing now I can't

[smird]

It slowly getting better what I can't figure out if there is a search in specific forum like hand guns I could search specific city or manufactures or gun model and narrow down the listing now I can't

When you are in whatever subforum Click the black down arrow on the search field at the top of the page. There will be a check box to only search that sub-forum.

[mblat]

I think you need 35 posts to make such demands.

IS my post count high enough for you? What kind of non-sense it is - "you are not old enough" to have an opinion? For God sake the mere existence of caguns should show that the situation is not good here. Fix it. If you don't have money - sell it.
Don't kill this resource by being mediocre ( at best ).

[TrappedinCalifornia]

IS my post count high enough for you? What kind of non-sense it is - "you are not old enough" to have an opinion? For God sake the mere existence of caguns should show that the situation is not good here. Fix it. If you don't have money - sell it.
Don't kill this resource by being mediocre ( at best ).

The existence of the other site shows what happens when someone takes advantage of a business opportunity, then engages in some 'questionable' (by certain standards) marketing to draw members.

Bear in mind that the membership over there isn't strictly discontented members from here. It's a mixed bag of frustrated members from here, banned members from here with an ax to grind, Reddit members, etc. Likewise, that site is different in terms of the content allowed, the content offered, the timbre of the content permitted, how it is being marketed, etc. In a sense, it's a different site which has a certain amount of crossover with this one, but is far from a true 'replacement,' as many members here have discovered by going there and then returning here.

I don't have issues with another site. But, to build it as a 'replacement' or an effective 'alternative' to this one is laughable in many respects and, to many, falls under the rubric of those 'questionable marketing tactics;' which includes a cadre determined to force management here to sell out or, at the very least, 'partner' with the owner of the other site, giving him access to key attributes so as to be able to 'expand.' (That last is something he's acknowledged, on here, in the past. He's also acknowledged that he didn't intend to 'replace' this site; but, if given the choice, he'd like to 'divide' the sites into separate areas of responsibility, with this one keeping what he's deemed 'undesirable' aspects/members from the 'greater good.')

This is what members are reacting to when posts appear demanding 'fix it or sell it.'

[mblat]

"which includes a cadre determined to force management here to sell out or, at the very least, 'partner' with the owner of the other site, giving him access to key attributes so as to be able to 'expand.'" Do you have any proof of that?

Besides. This goes to "he started it". If this sight would not have a problem ( the last night I could not get into it at all ), then this all would be moot.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

"which includes a cadre determined to force management here to sell out or, at the very least, 'partner' with the owner of the other site, giving him access to key attributes so as to be able to 'expand.'" Do you have any proof of that?

Besides. This goes to "he started it". If this sight would not have a problem ( the last night I could not get into it at all ), then this all would be moot.

I don't need to prove it. We all read it and if you didn't, that's your problem/fault. It's appeared on both this site and his. This has been gone into on numerous threads and, at this point, most don't want to see it regurgitated, again.

None of us is immune to frustrations with the problems associated with what's going on. We were warned, for years, that any upgrade in the software (something that was forced on this site with the host going out of business) would lead to just the type of issues we're now experiencing. Those of us with some experience in dealing with computers (some of it antiquated, admittedly), accept that there is no 'quick fix' and the continuous lamentations about 'by today's standards' ring hollow; particularly when it comes to abandoning the years of accumulated knowledge which lies buried in the threads on this site. Effectively, the difference is that many/most of us have reached a point where we recognize the need to accept the site for what it is at a given moment, provide what we hope to be useful feedback, and hope the work we've been told is being done (on a voluntary and part-time basis) is getting done. We know that the site has periods where it is working 'better' than it has been and there is some, though somewhat limited, 'evidence' that such is occurring. (No. I'm not going to point you to it as, again, you're either keeping up or you're not and if the latter, then you won't necessarily 'see' it.)

The idea that "he started it" comes down to a point of view. As I said, he took advantage of a business opportunity; but, his methods were 'distasteful' to many and, in some respects, deservedly so. He engaged in what he openly deemed 'guerrilla marketing' and then deleted the majority of his posts once the pushback got somewhat heated. (The deleting posts part is a particular sore point when someone now challenges what we all read with... prove it.) There's still some proof out there, but most don't want to get into it again and if you didn't see it, you can go looking to see if you can find it as I swore off continuing to do so as things started to calm down. Suffice to say that few remaining believe much, if anything, he puts out and I have shown, by his own posts, that he has business interests and ROI in mind rather than simply running a 'pro-gun site;' that last being something a number here question as not only is he 'new' to shooting, but he's had an 'unique' way of being 'pro-gun' in terms of his 'presentation' for quite a number. (Some of that can be excused due to his 'newbie' status as a shooter, but some of it is 'inexcusable' and, for some, intolerable.)

Suffice to say that he has a particular take on Calguns which is taken as... let's call it 'controversial'... in terms of being pro-Calguns, pro-guns, 'Conservative/conservative,' and as 'open-minded,' not to mention as 'tolerant' as he claims to be. He's also been deemed as 'inconsistent' in terms of what he preaches and what he practices; e.g., he doesn't believe in 'censorship,' then heavily engages in it on his own site, then proffers rationalizations which simply 'cement' unfavorable opinions. I've deemed it 'muddled messaging' and others have declared it... other things. One way or another, however, discourse about him and the 'other site' is no longer 'encouraged' and, frankly, what has been said about him and his site pales by comparison to what has been posted about Kestryll and this site on his own. It was made clear that a number of members on the other site consider his site to be 'competition' for this one and while he claims he personally doesn't, he's also made it abundantly clear that he has been desirous of attaining a certain level of 'control' over some aspects of this site, to the point of openly noting on his own site where he sees the 'division of areas of responsibility' needing to be and if he could just gain 'the authority'...

As I said, if you haven't kept up, that's your problem/fault. If you can't accept this site, with it's current (but, hopefully, short term) problems, as is, that's your problem. If you want to 'blame us' as being 'crotchety old men who are intolerant of...', that's your choice, but don't try to 'sell it' here.

ETA: If you haven't, go back and peruse this thread alone to get a sense for the 'diversity' of opinions held and a sense for the prevailing opinion on him and his site.

[mblat]

There are two parts here.

1. "we all know that other guy is bad and if you don't then it is your problem". Ok. Like you said - it is matter of opinion. Honestly I don't keep up with this tempest. And I don't have any reasons to be. Keep this site up - and I will not venture anywhere else. What I do know is this. I do not remember correctly, but I am willing to bet that I was among the first few thousands of users on this site. The only reason I was looking anywhere else - because this site sucked for month now. And personal stuff is irrelevant. I am thankful to Krestyl that he kept this site going after Ramon had to leave. I am not happy with how he handle this transition. One does not prevent another.

2. "We were warned, for years, that any upgrade in the software (something that was forced on this site with the host going out of business) would lead to just the type of issues we're now experiencing. " And that is nonsense. Yes, migration problems are real, but not for month and month and month. There are a lot of software professionals on this site ( including yours truly ) and they will tell you that if something like this would happen in commercial environment - that is firing offence for CTO. This site is relatively big. This is not a huge. It is simple matter of mismanagement/luck of knowledge. Which is understandable to a point but not for that long.

3. "opefully, short term" Short term? Again I do not keep the score, but hasn't it been about a year now?

[TrappedinCalifornia]

There are two parts here.

1. "we all know that other guy is bad and if you don't then it is your problem". Ok. Like you said - it is matter of opinion. Honestly I don't keep up with this tempest. And I don't have any reasons to be. Keep this site up - and I will not venture anywhere else. What I do know is this. I do not remember correctly, but I am willing to bet that I was among the first few thousands of users on this site. The only reason I was looking anywhere else - because this site sucked for month now. And personal stuff is irrelevant. I am thankful to Krestyl that he kept this site going after Ramon had to leave. I am not happy with how he handle this transition. One does not prevent another.

Nice spin. Show me where I said he was 'bad.' I said he took advantage of a business opportunity, but the methods he used were... questionable. There are quite a number of members who feel more... strongly... and you can see some of that on this thread... Is The Owner Of 'The Other Site' Learning? Maybe... Not???

Insofar as not keeping up with the tempest, well... There are those who will question your ability to 'demand' that Kestryll 'fix it or sell it' then. As I said, not all of this is Kestryll's fault. I won't go into one of my lengthy posts on this. Suffice to say he made a choice over the years to keep the old software in place to assuage a portion of the membership reliant upon iTrader; a feature only available on that version of the software. We were warned, repeatedly, over the years that any change to the software the site uses would lead to what we've been experiencing. What we found out, from Librarian, was that the business hosting the site went out-of-business and the new host demanded an upgrade to the software. Kestryll has acknowledged that the fixes are beyond his ken and he allowed a member and his team access to do the fixes, but on a voluntary and part-time basis.

Not happy with it? Neither are most of us. However, it was a business decision and the motivation ostensibly was to keep the 'historical record' intact. That is something most of us remaining agree with, whereas many of those who've gone elsewhere simply want a place to play and don't care about the 'history' or want things available at their convenience.

2. "We were warned, for years, that any upgrade in the software (something that was forced on this site with the host going out of business) would lead to just the type of issues we're now experiencing. " And that is nonsense. Yes, migration problems are real, but not for month and month and month. There are a lot of software professionals on this site ( including yours truly ) and they will tell you that if something like this would happen in commercial environment - that is firing offence for CTO. This site is relatively big. This is not a huge. It is simple matter of mismanagement/luck of knowledge. Which is understandable to a point but not for that long.

You're not the only 'professional' to make such claims and, to a degree, others have observed that your 'experience' isn't the only metric. Neither is it necessarily applicable in that there are several iterations of the software in between what was used and what is being used; meaning that it's not simply a matter of migrating the old to the new. Likewise, none of us have a vision of what's behind the curtain and, as others have noted, even the one guy and his team have changed the tune they were singing once they were given access. Short version: It appears not to be as 'simple' as many like to claim it to be.

3. "opefully, short term" Short term? Again I do not keep the score, but hasn't it been about a year now?

Let's see... Trying to update 20 years or more of posts/threads from software several iterations old on a part-time, voluntary basis and it hasn't happened in a time frame you feel appropriate? Uh...

Would we all like to see it happen... faster? Sure. But, we're more interested in seeing it happen correctly, with 'preservation' being the overriding goal, not 'immediacy.'

Again, a good amount of this lies in the fact that you 'don't keep with this tempest.' As I said, there are quite a few threads/posts on this, including some from personal friends of Kestryll who have alluded to a number of personal issues he's also been dealing with, not to mention posts by Kestryll himself noting the changes he attempted and acknowledging that things were beyond his technical abilities. Demands that he spend money, etc. are irrelevant in that they are based on assumptions which no one has any way of knowing or verifying; which is part of the 'rationale' the other guy used in attempting to gain access behind the curtain. (And, as we subsequently were made to realize, from his own posts, the desire had more to do with 'taking advantage' for his own ends than 'preserving' what we hold valuable.)

As I've said, quite a few times, if our faith in Kestryll and our belief in the site is misplaced, we'll find out. If one doesn't have the 'personality' to deal with it, as is, and endure the frustrations, there are alternatives. The site is working better than it did. Are there 'setbacks' which happen? Absolutely. But, as I said, most of u s have determined that we simply have to deal with things, as is and provide 'feedback' we hope is helpful and appropriate. Demanding he 'fix it or sell it' and citing personal takes on 'appropriate' in terms of how an individual member feels the site should be run are neither helpful nor appropriate.

[mblat]

It is illustrative that in the middle of this conversation the forum went down for 2 (?) hours. It is unfortunate that you do not want to acknowledge the main driver behind my post. It does not matter why. It does not matter how the other guy does his business. At this moment ( and for the last 10(?) month ) his product is better. I have near 20 years loyalty to this site. Most people don't. Hence - it is my opinion that this site will be gone if it will not get fixed. And that is a pity.

I think this conversation is pretty useless at this point. Thank you for your input.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

It is illustrative that in the middle of this conversation the forum went down for 2 (?) hours. It is unfortunate that you do not want to acknowledge the main driver behind my post. It does not matter why. It does not matter how the other guy does his business. At this moment ( and for the last 10(?) month ) his product is better. I have near 20 years loyalty to this site. Most people don't. Hence - it is my opinion that this site will be gone if it will not get fixed. And that is a pity.

I think this conversation is pretty useless at this point. Thank you for your input.

"If the site will not get fixed." That is the underlying assumption many have. Others see work being done and 'improvements,' marginal or better. Again, your parameter is a time frame you find acceptable. You can't be blamed for that as everyone has their own 'date.' But, that includes Kestryll, who owns and operates the business and that is the crux of it. It's not run by you or me or anyone else.

"How the other guy does business" does, in fact, matter, for several reasons. First, he has attempted to gain access to the 'inner workings' of this site and/or has talked about a 'buy out.' When neither of those came to fruition, he and a cadre went on something of a 'campaign' where this site and Kestryll were disparaged in a rather boorish and ham handed attempt to chivvy Kestryll into doing their bidding and/or to 'recruit' membership for his site. He was successful, up to a point. However... Second... His site isn't 'better' in many respects. Again, had you been keeping up with the threads, you would have seen those discussions. Suffice to say that many who are here actually gave his site a try and returned, less than enamored. It's different in terms of the timbre he allows and the 'freshness,' but that's not necessarily synonymous with 'better.' Third, he openly engaged in what he referenced as a 'guerrilla marketing' campaign which not only rubbed many the wrong way, but engendered questions regarding his motives, where some of those questions were 'answered' in a manner which indicated a number of things to the membership here and I've mentioned a couple of them already.

My interaction with this site goes back a number of years prior to my membership date. In some respects, while not necessarily an 'original,' I'm also a long-term loyalist. Thus, thrusting how long you've been loyal out there as a shibboleth doesn't cut much ice and hasn't with many members who are even longer term than I am. You have an opinion. Kestryll has allowed many/most of those opinions to be posted. Your thinking isn't unique and, in many respects, is echoed by what I refer to as the cadre who have been attempting their own 'Fifth Column' campaign. I'm not accusing you of being a member of that group; but, I am attempting to 'warn' you regarding how your 'message' is and will be received. If you consider that 'useless,' so be it.

This site and these threads are not a 'marketing tool' for unpaid promotion of another site where many of that site's members consider it to be competition for this one and where the owner of that other site has played his hand in terms of an attempt to 'take over' or 'gain power' in relation to this one. The membership has gone 'round the barn with the owner of the other site about that. Moderators and even Kestryll have limits on their powers at the moment due to technical difficulties; but, trust me, as you haven't kept up, 'promoting' the other site as 'better' and being a 'doomsayer' regarding this one is no longer persuasive with and engenders a rather negative reaction from those of us who remain if it's pushed.

[lastinline]

What makes that other site “better” is that it actually works as far as being able to gain access when this site does not. I can only get on here in the morning, but at no other time. And that’s about all the other site has going for it. I have come to view the Racoon as some sort of pacifist who wants to “bring together” people who are gun owners, without regard to politics. Well sorry to tell ya, politics is deeply intertwined with gun ownership and the 2A. Leftists will NEVER be good for the constitution, no matter what some site admin type tells you.
If anyone wants a better alternative to Calguns, The High Road seems to be the only logical choice.

[pennstater]

The High Road indeed!

MLC

[OlderThanDirt]

I haven’t been having any problems with this site lately. I’m beginning to think there is a lot of user error here. Some of you guys probably need to learn how to use a computer and run your home networks.