IMHO---training for ladies

[OliveCookieMonsta]

So I posted a tread in the general ("men's") training forum...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5505192#post5505192

For some reason I thought I would get support for the issue I was having but I got mostly a - "u're just thin skinned and now talkin ****" response from the forum I thought I like lol kidding. Anyway I wanted to share my experience with u ladies... Check out my comments on Frontsight if u agree great! If not it's cool.

Keep in mind.. In my experience there, it sucked!!! But I also found by the end of the fourth day two other women besides me, went home crying never to return!!! And I graduated with a graduate degree just shy of advance. Let me also say I have 150 hours of training in the last year!!! The way an instructor teaches should never make anyone...especially a women walk off the line frustrated and in tears, not able to learn anymore...

Thanks

[choprzrul]

What did Wes have to say about your experience? If there is a rogue instructor doing this type of thing, Front Sight management needs to be made aware of it so that they can fix the problem. I am not discounting your experience, just thinking that the problem should have been addressed and rectified on the ground at them time you were there.

My wife has done the 4 day defensive handgun and the 2 day skill builder. She liked it well enough to ask that we get lifetime memberships.

[OliveCookieMonsta]

We didnt get a chance to talk to Wes, who turned out to be retire SO in Kern County and talked to one of the guys we were shooting with (found out before the incident in the proshop) ... Honestly we just spoke with the lead instructor and hoped the situation would be resolved "after" we left. I(we) didn't want it to affect the rest of the experience there or be a victim of repercussions in the latter two days, even if the first two days were a horrible experience..

I'm in the process of writing my email review, thanks and happy holidays!

[masameet]

Olive, if you were accused of wrongdoing and the accusation was made in front of other customers, it was wrong of that FS guy. Two other FS trainers had inspected your gun on Day 2 and passed it. The other guy was working on an assumption that was unmerited, as most assumptions are. He was unfair to you and dressed you down unnecessarily, causing you embarrassment and humiliation. The guy is a jerk, a jacka%% and an a%%hole.

I'm glad your two friends who are NRA instructors agreed with you -- that the problem with your Glock was a burr of brass in the firing spring and not a spring that had "soldered" itself onto the plunger. Their agreement with you showed how unnecessary it was of that other guy to accuse you of trying to have FS swap out for free from one of its guns your Glock's plunger.

Of the all the new Calgunners who've come on board in the past year or so, I think you've shown an uncommon amount of enthusiasm for handguns and shooting, going from one training program to another. I have no experience with FS and probably will never try it out. I understand Bruce Gray's (of Grayguns) shooting program is outstanding (and that 9mmepiphany is one of his instructors). But then again, Gray promotes SIGs.

Anyway I know how hard it is for us females to come down from a negative state. I hope once you regain your good cheer and equilibrium that you'll consider FS as just another learning experience that wasn't worth it for you.

[OliveCookieMonsta]

Thanks Masameet, I appreciate your comment. I'm absolutely taken the road you suggested. FS was another learning experience and will not hinder my enjoyment. ... Hehe I just signed up for another class. Enjoy the new year!

[9mmepiphany]

I read the whole thread and I am a bit surprised you didn't get more support too...I didn't know, until I read it, that FS had such a cult following. I always thought that folks went there because you could beat the price with the discount coupons and obviously they do meet the expectations of some people. It does sound like one instructor was a bit boorish and doubt he should list communication skills as a major asset on his vita. But it also sounds like a couple of the instructors were reasonable.

You are correct in your expectation not to be demeaned or held up to ridicule by an instructor...at least I've never found a need to do it. What I'm trying to say is that I have no reason to doubt that your experience is completely justified

I thought this post rather interesting:

These are very gruff guys, doing their best to put on their "nice guy" hats. That is true of most guys that into firearms. Sometimes the gruffness sneaks out for a peak. But it is not the norm.

After 28 years in LE, I've met these gruff guys too...the only thing that kept me there was that they were paying me to be there, but I'm just like that...they weren't teachers, they were instructors (there is a fine distinction)

I'm threading a fine line here, as it is considered unprofessional to speak poorly of other training programs. You'll note that my above comments are only directed at other members behavior and what general expectations would be reasonable for you to have when taking a class

I wrote this about another program...not in CA...but it is just as applicable here:

We do not teach tactical shooting, that field is more than full, but shooting fundamentals that should form the basis of any shooting endeavor, be it competition or combat. My observations are based on the successful teaching of skills. I have taught students from a 10 year old girl to grandmothers, gays and conservatives, the religious and the non-believers, Glock and 1911 shooters...with equal respect and success. Everyone had a positive and personal experience and left as better shooters...I don't think that is asking too much of a trainer.

My students expect not to be denigrated for their ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual preference or choice of weapon. They will not be verbally bullied or insulted. Instructors need to accept learning or equipment differences and adapt their instructional mode. Students will not endanger other students or themselves practicing techniques...safety is always first.

If you'd like to discuss your experience, please feel free to PM me....and yes I have taught several students to shoot Glock, I even have a G19 that I carry

[Steyrlp10]

GF,

Just digested your original thread and tried not to get sucked into some of the more ignorant statements that were made by other Calgunners. Opinions are just that -- opinions. Everyone has one and that's what makes this site "interesting."

You and I can agree to disagree with them

Personally, I can understand the frustration you must have felt. I am not a big fan of any type of higher learning where the student-teacher ratio exceeds a practical number (more than two students to one instructor), especially with something as involved as a firearms course.

For the Calgunners who browbeat you, claiming you were a noob, that was really uncalled for. To me, it doesn't matter whether you're experienced or inexperienced -- you're enrolled in a class to learn. What does being new have anything to do with how you were treated?

I'm sorry you had gun problems. It sounded like the whole thing was just a fluke that happened to snowball. It's also my hope that you don't quit trying to improve your shooting skills since it's something you really enjoy -- like the rest of us gals on here.

If you're ever in 9MM's neck of the woods, he's as good as an instructor as you can ever want. After all, he never yelled at me

[stacym]

Olive -
I read the thread where you originally posted your experience.What you experienced sounds pretty unfortunate and unprofessional.

[Sajedene]

Wow, that sucks to read. I can't believe you were treated that way and that others were so quick to attack you here as well. Why would anyone defend such behavior?

It's not like you were asking to be coddled. You should be treated with respect. I mean, good thing you are already into shooting and stuff, imagine if a woman who is only being introduced to the wonders of 2nd Amendment were treated that way (both at FS and here at CGN for posting her experience)... we would have lost one of us!

[OHOD]

One of the most important rules an instructor needs to follow, is to take the student aside and discuss the problem privately.
1. The instructor is then able to work with the student 1:1
2. The student won't get embarrassed in front of a class.

Instructors that are able to do this show that they are dedicated professionals. Just like a manager, you don't berate a subordinate in front of other workers.
Clearly, the instructor did something that caused the OP to feel singled out.
Clearly, unprofessional behavior by the instructor.

It does not matter what others think about what might have happened, something happened and it is the instructors job to recognize a problem and solve the problem with professionalism, regardless as to what the problem is. Soft skin, bad gun, mean instructor, nice instructor, tough shooter....it doesn't matter, a sign of a true professional is one that can recognize seemingly insignificant problems and solve them.

On occasion, I have had a student make a really bad mistake. Rather than berate the student, I used the opportunity to teach everyone without singling out the student. Being able to do this is not as easy as one would think.

To the OP:
There are plenty of firearm training schools out there, pick another one.
Thanks for your post, Front Sight will not get my money.

[OHOD]

Wow, that sucks to read. I can't believe you were treated that way and that others were so quick to attack you here as well. Why would anyone defend such behavior?

It's not like you were asking to be coddled. You should be treated with respect. I mean, good thing you are already into shooting and stuff, imagine if a woman who is only being introduced to the wonders of 2nd Amendment were treated that way (both at FS and here at CGN for posting her experience)... we would have lost one of us!

Excellent observation.
Respect is key in any business endeavor.
I was really surprised at some of the posts in the thread.

[9mmepiphany]

I hate to generalize about folks I don't know, but it has been my experience that many time folks will go to one school and their shooting gets better. The sing the praises of that school and what they teach. They wear their having attended that school as a sign of having reached a higher level of acomplishment.

When someone questions that perception, they see it as a personal attack on their own skill level, because they identify so strongly with that school...they can't see any faults, because that would then bring their choice into question .

One of the things you get to do,when you pay to attend a school is question what they teach and how they teach it....just not at the point of disrupting the class. They should be able to answer your questions with more than "Because that's how we teach it" or "Because it's the right way". It you aren't satisfied or you have a negative experience, you should be able to give voice to that experience.

The problem with the other thread is that folks didn't try to understand what was happening and look for possible explanations of what happens. They didn't even ask for more facts before jumping in to say you were wrong. That just tells us that they weren't interested in what happened...and that just shows their lack of creditability for their attacks.

If it hadn't been so ugly on that thread, I would have quipped..."You get what you paid for" referring to the discount coupons that many use, but that would have been unfair too...at least you didn't pay $800-1000 for 4 days

[Steyrlp10]

It's not like you were asking to be coddled. You should be treated with respect. I mean, good thing you are already into shooting and stuff, imagine if a woman who is only being introduced to the wonders of 2nd Amendment were treated that way (both at FS and here at CGN for posting her experience)... we would have lost one of us!

So true... I think that's why the first negative experience for some people (regardless of gender) with firearms training just makes people quit.

Going to class should be fun -- not stressful!

[johnny_22]

Weird...

You are not alone. Tom Gresham of Guntalk has nothing good to say about FrontSight. Dean Speir was the same. These are men who have shot years longer than me. I trust their opinion.

If I am going to drive for 8+ hours, it is to beautiful Lakeview, OR, where Clint and Heidi know how to be safe and polite.

[laika]

Bullying is just not acceptable. I am glad you finished the course and hope the knowledge you got from it balances the bullying. You are always a helpful and courteous forum member and I am sorry this happened; thank you for making it public so that others will be forewarned and a bit wary if and when they take the class.

Two women had to leave early? Just not acceptable. But you can certainly hold your head up, thank you for taking the risk to discuss it on the forums.