Gun Store Clerks

[movie zombie]

I'm sorry, this post is such a pile of feminist bullsh.t. My wife is completely intimidated by gunstores and the whole process, yet I have no doubt that she could handle herself and one of our handguns in a stress situation due to all the practice and range-time I have encouraged/faciliated and the drills we have done.

Not mutually exclusive....

...and you do yourself a disservice from being so blatantly misandrous and sexist towards men.

this attitude is exactly why MR K created this forum: so we the women of calguns don't have to listen to the pile of masculine testosterone driven drivel that permeates so much of the many other calguns forums, especially but not limited to OT.

it is ok to say your wife is intimidated and relate YOUR experience with her.

but to come into this forum and start talking trash about one of own who is an experienced and knowledgeable shooter, who takes 2A rights seriously, who is active in the Sacto area sports, well, my advise to you is to stop with the name calling and get your a.h back to OT.

it is this type of attitude that keeps the many but not all calgunner women from participating in many of the other forums and it is the reason I do not recommend calguns to other women.

geez, wtf is wrong with the men of calguns?! everyone says they want women here but when we speak our mind we are castigated and labeled as some kind of deviant when in fact being a feminist is nothing to be afraid of if you are a real man.

today is July 4 in the year 2017 and by god it is not a bad thing to want equal rights, equal pay for equal work, not be denigrated for being a woman, not being shamed for not making the same decisions as men, etc. we too have US Constitutional rights and we do NOT have to view the world the way you do.

rant over.

[jeremiah12]

I'm sorry, this post is such a pile of feminist bullsh.t. My wife is completely intimidated by gunstores and the whole process, yet I have no doubt that she could handle herself and one of our handguns in a stress situation due to all the practice and range-time I have encouraged/faciliated and the drills we have done.

Not mutually exclusive....

...and you do yourself a disservice from being so blatantly misandrous and sexist towards men.

So MissiontoMars: what would your wife do if something happened to you? Say you were in a tragic car accident and passed away. How will your wife buy a gun from a LGS if she needed? She will have to get over her intimidation.

Same goes with buying a car or all of those other things that were traditionally left up to the menfolk.

When my wife wanted to replace the car she drove many years ago, I told her to do her own research and buy it herself. She was the one driving it. She started to protest and I said what would you do if I died tomorrow and you needed to get a new car? We had a 8 year old son then.

She did the research and I did go with her to the dealerships. The sales guy would start talking to me and I said she was buying, talk to her.

BTW, she talked the dealership down further that I thought even I could. She found her truck, used and 1 year old. The dealer told her the price was not negotiable. She left her number with him and said when you want to sell it at my price, call me. Two days later the salesperson called and she bought the truck for her price, out the door. She made it clear what she was willing to pay out the door and if the bottom line was even $1 over she would walk again.

She even lined up credit from our Credit union and came with a check in her amount.

My wife decided on a truck of all things. We still have that truck and it has been great. My son will get when he finishes graduate school next year.

I grew up with a very strong mother and grandmother. They did all those things.

When I had a stroke 8 years ago, my wife had to take over everything. She had no problems.

My wife does not like guns and may never shoot. She has gone from being anti to acceptance. In fact recently she mentioned, over another shooting in our city, that she understood why guns are not the problem, people are.

She has also asked about going to the range with me. I tell her you tell me when.

She would never had come around if I said you have to shoot. The .38 snub nosed S&W her dad gave to her soon after we were married is still sitting in the locked box in our closet. Even her dad could not force her to learn to shoot.

You are right, if a guy wrote let the little lady stay in the car while you go shopping, he would have been called out on it. Most of the time though that is a phrase meant to say she cannot handle it it so she has to leave it up to a man.

Bonnie's meaning, as I took it, was it is okay for the husband to tag along but he needs to do something while she is buying her gun. It is not because he cannot handle it, it is to make it clear she is buying the gun for herself and the counter guy does not start to sell to you while ignoring her. She then gets treated like a child. I have seen this happen many times, and not just gun stores.

So OP, check your ego before reading and do not read something into what was written that was not there. Stop with the name calling because it does not help and shows immediately that you are letting your emotions cloud your judgement. It just comes across as a testosterone fueled rant that women have had to deal with their whole lives and they will stop listening to you and write off anything you say with an eye roll and laugh.

Besides, this is the Women's section, and the topic is how do women deal with buying guns other than let your man do it for you.

[BonnieB]

Thanks for the strong support and defense, folks. Jeremiah's right. I don't need the HH to sit in the car, it's a metaphor. But I do think he should do something else while the purchase is going on. Maybe buying his own gun at a different counter..

And I think MZ is right. Real men like strong women. That's certainly been my experience.

[101st Airborne]

Gun store clerks, for me, are just to facilitate the sale. Prior to purchase I do my research and I know exactly what I want. For the ladies, it should be the same. Do your research, know what you want and don't listen to them. In my experience they have little knowledge on firearms aside what's in sales brochures.

This.

And ask the Sac LEO who had his bicep blown apart by .380acp if he thinks it's ineffective.

[BonnieB]

Airborne, I agree. Shot placement trumps caliber every time.

[Josh3239]

[CSACANNONEER]

I often recommend 9mm. I don't recommend 9mm because they are women, I recommend 9mm because that is what I recommend in most cases. And it the VAST majority of these cases they are personal defense guns for at-home use.

While I understand and sort of agree with your recommendation of 9mm, I also know that you don't follow your own advice. LOL.

[Barang]

My wife and I are lucky to be treated pleasantly by different LGS here in Sacto area. They only recommended different gun/s when asked. Of course, there's always that one "exemption to the rule" but not a big deal.

My wife have tried different guns before buying her first (Sig MK25). I made a mistake of deciding for her so she ended up hating Glock and Snubby (sold both). It's good that I had the sense to move as far away from her when deciding for her first. She shot Sig P226 before but after going to LGS and handled MK25, without hesitation she said, "I want this."

She now owns more P226s and 239s.

[BonnieB]

While I'm at it, I want to give a shout-out for The River City Gun Exchange in Sacramento, and Robby Betts at Golden State Tactical in Fair Oaks. I think I've bought every gun I have from one or the other. Both firms are the absolute best and get my repeat business again and again.

I bought my very first gun at River City Gun Exchange. I was a wide-eyed newbie, buying a first handgun, alone, at age 65. RCGE treated me as a trusted, serious customer from the very first word. I've been told that a lot of their staff are disabled or retired LEO's and that was enough to get me into the store. They're wildly busy there all the time, but you have your salesman's undivided attention when you are talking to him. They know me now, know that if I'm there at all, I'm buying. I don't even have to hold up my American Express Gold to get to the front of the line. I just wave to let them know I'm there and when it's my turn, someone yells out "Bonnie !" and I go to the counter.

Robby Betts runs a 'boutique' LGS near Sacramento. He may not love that I call it boutique, but what else do you call a retailer who will only see you one-on-one, by appointment, who is the actual proprietor, who only does specific orders for specific people and treats every customer as if she drove up in a Ferrari? He is the absolute best and I don't know anyone who understands gun law and regulation better. Even attorneys. So I go to Robby without hesitation.

Now, you're wondering why it is, with TWO great LGS's in Sacramento that I'm wound up by the treatment of women in other LGS's. This is not rocket science. Those LGS's that ignored me, asked where my husband was, treated me badly, patronized me, tried to up-sell or down-sell me, or just didn't take me seriously, didn't get my business, my dollars or my recommendations. Once in a while I'm in those LGS's buying targets or gun oil, and I'm watching, really watching how they treat their women customers, just in case my being treated badly was an isolated incident. Generally not.

I'm really beginning to think that how the sales staff treats women is really governed by the owners' ideas and values. Because it seems darned consistent to me.

I encourage other women to find an LGS who treats you right, who treats you like a valued customer, give them your business and make sure your friends know too.

[SSGTSemperFI]

Whether or not "HH" is in the store, I feel, is relevant to the person and the situation.

Turners, Bass Pro, Dick's, *insert sporting goods store here*, is a place I would not allow my mother or sister to seek gun advice alone. It's been my experience that they're there solely with the intent of making a sale, matters not what it is or if it's appropriate.

Both of them are strong, independent, and I hold confidence that they could pull the trigger given a situation where needed. That does not, however, mean that they're knowledgeable on firearms and thusly, susceptible to being schmoozed by the guy behind the counter for an upsell or lead astray from something that's appropriate for the intended use. To put it in perspective, if knowledge of firearms were a 7.62x39 round, they'd have the knowledge enough to fill the primer pocket.

My mother owns a 686-6. She knows how it operates, how to safely handle it, how to clean it, what caliber it is (.38 spl or .357), and how to properly store it. Beyond that though, she has very little knowledge of firearms.

My sister owns a Springfield 1911. She bought it more because it was a fashion statement than it was her caliber of choice. While I fundamentally disagreed with this, and made it VERY well known, I made sure that she was capable of producing an acceptable group with it before I allowed her to make the purchase. If you'd like to consider that misogynistic or belittling, so be it. I saw, see, and will continue to see it as instilling basic fundamentals behind her purchase. She knows how to manipulate it, how to produce an acceptable grouping, how to handle it safely, but she is hard-headed when it comes to how it operates or how it's cleaned. She's owned the gun for a little over a year now, and i've had to walk her through the cleaning process every single time.

Myself, Most of my firearms knowledge actually doesn't come from handling firearms. I've been immersed in the culture since I was very young (around the age of five). It wasn't, however, until about three years ago that I owned my first firearm. I've never held an AK, but i'm fairly confident I could keep her operable were one thrown in my hands tomorrow I don't own an AR, but I've taught my cousins how to field strip as well as perform a thorough cleaning on theirs. I had the op-rod on my Savage 6670 break, I figured out how to pull it apart, get the bolt out, and replace it. My firearms knowledge, as I said, comes largely from being immersed in the culture. By no means do I consider myself an expert in any firearm, but I have the knowledge base to figure and resolve many of the problems they present. I might hold the knowledge of the primer and the casing of the aforementioned bullet; I know powder needs to be added and a bullet needs to be seated, but I don't know what type. I also had the knowledge base that told me it's unacceptable to allow someone who's inexperienced to make a purchase of a 1911 without, at the very least, teaching her how to shoot one, and see if she's capable of handling it. The guy behind the counter at Turners was there to make a sale from her regardless of if it was, or was not the "right" thing to do.

Now, if you've been around firearms your entire life, have made purchases before, know your limitations, strengths; weaknesses, and you head into the store knowing what, and why, you want "x" then yes, I have no place to tell you that it is, or is not appropriate.

My sister doesn't ask me for advice on clothes.
My mother doesn't ask me for advice on handbags.
Both, rightfully so. I have very limited knowledge on both subjects.

Being arrogant and/or overbearing, or being someone there to guide a person less knowledgable than yourself on a subject are two very different things.

[MissiontoMars]

There is also the option of taking one of her female friends along to the gun store. Incredibly, most of us have worked in testosterone-soaked environments for decades and are quite immune! Or maybe just amused...

Seriously, of all my visits to gun stores I can recall maybe one or two where I did not receive good service and I felt it was because I am a woman. Take a friend or spouse if you value their opinion or want moral support ( I prefer to shop alone). You are the buyer and in control. If you feel slighted or put down, take your money and business to another store. Handle the guns safely, don't sweep the clerk, ask questions, and after the first purchase (or two) you will be remembered and greeted with a smile. At least that has been my experience.

100% percent agree with this other option, Accounting Mom. My wife has taken our lady friends shooting and gun shopping/browsing at the range on a "girls night" with great results/lots of fun had.

Again, in my opinion, (to address some of the other resonses) I see no reason to make feminism or female empowerment the stick with which other women are beaten with...no reason a woman MUST go alone or MUST be alone for the transaction. If you want to go alone, or have no problem with it - great. Good for you, enjoy the shooting sports. Please understand, though, it's one of several choices....certainly not a hurdle to be cleared or a litmus test as to your future efficacy as a gun owner, as certain posters have alluded to.

Again, I could care less about the "seasoned shooters" looking at this thread. I'm talking to the ladies who are yet to be gun owners who MAY hesitate to exercise their 2a rights by getting themselves a gun because they don't feel comfortable going alone, due to that being held up as a "standard" of some sort.

That'll be my last post on the topic, as I do want to respect the nature of this forum.

[movie zombie]

it is not beating with a female empowerment stick to believe that if a woman wants a gun she needs to be a participant in the process. she needs to do some research re the laws and types of guns. it is not a problem to talk to men about it or to even take a male with her for gathering more info.

the problem is that too many men think they know it all and/or insist that their opinion is more important than what the woman who is going to be using the gun thinks about what fits her hand and/or what she wants.

we see it all the time here on calguns.

it has to be her decision. she has to get her certificate. she has to understand the laws. she has to practice with the gun. if she is not a participant in the process she has the real likelihood of being a danger to herself and those around her.

too many men are also threatened by a woman who makes her own decisions or disagree with them. men say they want the woman in their life to be empowered and to be able to protect herself but then they want to make her decisions for her. it is so easy for a guy to think he is being helpful and enabling her to make a decision when his body language, tone of voice and attitude really say "i know best and you should buy what I want you to buy".

there are men who do it right. but too many don't.

[code_blue]

*Snip*

it has to be her decision. she has to get her certificate. she has to understand the laws. she has to practice with the gun. if she is not a participant in the process she has the real likelihood of being a danger to herself and those around her.

*Snip*

This is EXACTLY correct. It is not hard to spot the individual, male or female, that comes walking in fully influenced by someone else to buy a specific weapon. Typically, it's FUD and price that guides these folks.

I vividly remember the gal that was so adamant about buying a Shield 40 per her BIL's recommendation and despite my explanations of firearms/recoil physics, recommendations, and specifically showing her the difference in caliber sizes via snap caps that I gave up and sold it to her. I didn't even want to sell her a Shield because she couldn't manipulate it and barely passed safety check.

Well two weeks later she returns with her BIL and complained to me that the pistol was wayyyy too snappy and blamed me for selling her the wrong gun. I offered her $200 of my own cash (she covers DROS), but she declined.


Another gal came in to PPT her pistol two weeks after she had bought it (not from me). She and her guest at home did not respect the firearm and cardinal rules nearly costing her life. Apparently, an AD had occurred because no one bothered to check the chamber before playing with it nor did they understand that SAO pistols require the safety to be ON while loaded and not firing. Well, now she's afraid of guns and refuses to own another one due to her own stupidity.

We need to educate new owners even if they are embarrassed from the teaching. Embarrassment is an automatic learning experience especially when your life is at potential risk.

I do enjoy giving a confused look when people who allude to being super experienced say "clip" requiring that I ask, "what's a clip?"

"Ohhhhh! The ammo holder thingy? That's a magazine. Also, hold the gun this way. The way you're holding it now is called 'tea-cupping'. It does nothing to support the gun and only communist countries use it."

[LadyA]

I have purchased two guns in the last six months from Sacramento LGS. In all but one store, I was treated very well, including BPS. I elected to leave husband at home after his initial input wanting me to get a gun we could both use! I, personally, only once felt that the clerks were being condescending and appreciated their knowledge and information as I was narrowing my choice. The store in which I felt belittled, lost my business, on every level.

[movie zombie]

lol, LadyA, re "elected to leave husband at home after his initial input wanting me to get a gun we could both use".

I think you hit on something, though: perhaps most men don't realize it but they project what they want to shoot as being what the woman/women in his life should/must shoot.

so what did you buy?