Shipping high caps from TX to CA FFL - Minimum documentation required?

[tenpercentfirearms]

There are several comments in this thread that mistakenly assume that you must have an LCP in order to receive mags from out of state. What I meant in my comments was that, IF you are a gun dealer with a DROS account, you must have an LCP in order to receive magazines from out of state. If you are not a dealer, yet you fall under the exemptions stated under the old 12020, you do not need an LCP. There are many more exemptions besides 12020(b).

This is correct. If a dealer, LCP. If not a dealer with CFD, but a magazine seller then no permit is required.

Jay is this specifically the language you are referring to?

32400. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale of, giving of,
lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any
large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and
county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any
law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official
duties, whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by
the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

[allpoint]

Not sure we're on the same wavelength here so I'll try to clarify. I'm located in Texas, asking about shipping assembled large caps into CA to a CA FFL. I want to know what paperwork I need to see from the CA FFL that would allow me to legally ship the mags into CA assembled.

Thanks,
-Mark

32315. Upon a showing that good cause exists, the Department of
Justice may issue permits for the possession, transportation, or sale
between a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915,
inclusive, and an out-of-state client, of large-capacity magazines.

32435. Section 32310 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this
state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by any
entity that operates an armored vehicle business pursuant to the laws
of this state.

And they should know what documentation to send you.

[franklinarmory]

Yes, yes, yes. However, the OP asked about shipping to an FFL. Federally, an 01/FFL and 07/FFL are always dealers. However, in California there are plenty of federal "dealers" that are not STATE licensed "dealers," so the point you keep missing Dachan is the fact that not all FFLs will need to have the mag permit to receive mags from out of state. We do not know if Mark is talking about an FFL on the exempted list or the dealer list, so that is why the distinction was made.

[dachan]

There are several comments in this thread that mistakenly assume that you must have an LCP in order to receive mags from out of state. What I meant in my comments was that, IF you are a gun dealer with a DROS account, you must have an LCP in order to receive magazines from out of state. If you are not a dealer, yet you fall under the exemptions stated under the old 12020, you do not need an LCP. There are many more exemptions besides 12020(b).

This is correct. If a dealer, LCP. If not a dealer with CFD, but a magazine seller then no permit is required.

EDIT: For Jay's benefit, a "dealer" as used in this post refers to a person as defined under PC12071. END EDIT

Looks like we're all in violent agreement on this off-topic item, again the OP was questioning the need to be presented a LCMP before shipping to a dealer, not anything about any other exemptions or exempt entities regarding importation or selling.

On-topic: A LCMP exempts a dealer on the Centralized List.

Off-topic: There are several other exemptions to parts of or all of PC12020(a)(2), including LE agencies, LEO, in-person loans, repair by a gunsmith, armored vehicle business and employees, and motion picture companies, special weapons permit holder, plus others.

Note that PC12020(b)(21) only exempts dealers from the sale and purchase of LCM's. PC12020(b)(26) exempts the importation (through the possession of a LCMP). Dealers can buy LCM's that are already in-state and sell LCM's (to exempt persons or entities) without a LCMP. But dealers can only import LCM's when possessing a valid LCMP. Also, note that nowhere in the PC are dealers allowed to manufacture LCM's, so if you receive a rebuild kit you are not allowed to put it back together. However, if you have a LCMP and receive a rebuild kit, you can drive it out of state, assemble it, and drive it back into the state as LCM.

12020(b)Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the
following:
(19) The sale of, giving of, lending of,
importation into this state of, or purchase of, any
large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state,
county, city and county, or city agency that is charged
with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency
employees in the discharge of their official duties
whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized
by the agency and is within the course and scope of
their duties.
(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to,
purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of,
a large capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as
defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830)
of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm
in the course and scope of his or her duties.
(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity
magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section
12071.
(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed
large-capacity magazine between two individuals if all
of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity
magazine is not prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1,
or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms
or ammunition.
(B) The loan of the large-capacity magazine
occurs at a place or location where the possession of the
large-capacity magazine is not otherwise prohibited and
the person who lends the large-capacity magazine
remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to
whom the large-capacity magazine is loaned.
(23) The importation of a large-capacity
magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the
large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1,
2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning
to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously
lawfully possessed in the state.
(24) The lending or giving of any
large-capacity magazine to a person licensed pursuant
to Section 12071, or to a gunsmith, for the purposes of
maintenance, repair, or modification of that
large-capacity magazine.
(25) The return to its owner of any
large-capacity magazine by a person specified in
paragraph (24).
(26) The importation into this state of, or sale
of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has
been issued a permit to engage in those activities
pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in
accordance with the terms and conditions of that
permit.
(27) The sale of, giving of, lending of,
importation into this state of, or purchase of, any
large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate
armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this
state.
(28) The lending of large-capacity magazines
by the entities specified in paragraph (27) to their
authorized employees, while in the course and scope of
their employment for purposes that pertain to the
entity's armored vehicle business.
(29) The return of those large-capacity
magazines to those entities specified in paragraph (27)
by those employees specified in paragraph (28).
(30)(A) The manufacture of a large-capacity
magazine for any federal, state, county, city and county,
or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of
any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge
of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where
the use is authorized by the agency and is within the
course and scope of their duties.
(B) The manufacture of a large-capacity
magazine for use by a sworn peace officer as defined in
Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3
of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the
course and scope of his or her duties.
(C) The manufacture of a large-capacity
magazine for export or for sale to government agencies
or the military pursuant to applicable federal
regulations.
(31) The loan of a large-capacity magazine for
use solely as a prop for a motion picture, television, or
video production.
(32) The purchase of a large-capacity magazine
by the holder of a special weapons permit issued
pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, 12286, or
12305, for any of the following purposes:
(A) For use solely as a prop for a motion
picture, television, or video production.
(B) For export pursuant to federal regulations.
(C) For resale to law enforcement agencies,
government agencies, or the military, pursuant to
applicable federal regulations.

[dachan]

Yes, yes, yes. However, the OP asked about shipping to an FFL. Federally, an 01/FFL and 07/FFL are always dealers. However, in California there are plenty of federal "dealers" that are not STATE licensed "dealers," so the point you keep missing Dachan is the fact that not all FFLs will need to have the mag permit to receive mags from out of state. We do not know if Mark is talking about an FFL on the exempted list or the dealer list, so that is why the distinction was made.

Now I understand. You're speaking of the possibly unique cases where a (federally defined) dealer is exempt through one of the other listed exemptions, like a armored vehicle business that also possesses a 01FFL but none of the state licenses (not really legal because to have a 01FFL, you are to be engaged in the "business" which you cannot if you don't have the state licenses, but who cares for this discussion). In such case, it would seem
the subject of being a dealer or possessing a LCMP shouldn't need to even come up. Instead, the importation can be solely based upon the other exemption.

[franklinarmory]

It does come up. We have reps that are 01/FFLs in California. They keep the FFL so I can ship them samples easily. However, they are not on centralized list because they don't sell to the public. However, there is no reason why they couldn't import mags from Mark if they were wanting to sell them to their cop buddies. The exact exemption is under 12020(b)(13) and it also allows for in state manufacturing.

[dachan]

It does come up. We have reps that are 01/FFLs in California. They keep the FFL so I can ship them samples easily. However, they are not on centralized list because they don't sell to the public. However, there is no reason why they couldn't import mags from Mark if they were wanting to sell them to their cop buddies. The exact exemption is under 12020(b)(13) and it also allows for in state manufacturing.

I'd be careful about using PC12020(b)(12)&(13) as an exemption to the LCM ban. You need to argue that a LCM is covered under the verbage "weapons, devices and ammunition" when in every other part of the PC a LCM is uniquely separate from the weapon or device. It is more likely that (1) a LCM is not a weapon or device and (2) manufacture, importation, etc of a weapon or device with a LCM requires a LCM specific exemption. An analogy is that a licensed dealer is able to import an off-roster handgun (for sale to LEO) per the PC, but only able to import the associated LCM if properly permitted. Similarly, PC12020(b)(13) allows the sale, manufacture, etc of a weapon or device, but not of a LCM unless additionally exempted.

[franklinarmory]

No doubt a magazine is a "device." The LCMP is required only if you are licensed under 12071. All other class of persons do not require it, yet still can qualify for the various 12020 exemptions. Double check the wording. Each legitimate exemption applies to all of 12020(a). That would include 12020(a)(1) AND 12020(a)(2).

Under the new number scheme, the exemptions all still exist, but I still like using the old numbers too. They are a lot easier since they are already committed to memory.

[dachan]

No doubt a magazine is a "device."

Again, I have doubts. Throughout the applicable PC, "device" refers to an assembly capable of firing a cartridge, a magazine is not such an assembly.

The LCMP is required only if you are licensed under 12071. All other class of persons do not require it, yet still can qualify for the various 12020 exemptions.

Basically agree, but would word it slightly differently. The LCMP (as provided for in PC12020(b)(26)) is the form of exemption if you are licensed under PC12071. As you say, there are various other PC12020 exemptions besides the LCMP (PC12020(b)(26)) for other classes of persons. For example, one of the most common is (in laymen's terms) the purchase of LCM's by LEO. However, even here, the specific exemption as stated in PC12020(b)(19) requires that it be for use "within the course and scope of their duties" and where "use is authorized by the agency". A dealer selling a LCM to a LEO maybe within their reasonable bounds to request an agency letterhead authorizing the use of said LCM.

Each legitimate exemption applies to all of 12020(a). That would include 12020(a)(1) AND 12020(a)(2).

Totally disagree. The various sections of PC12020(a) prohibits certain things. The various sections of PC12020(b) apply specific exemptions to PC12020(a). For example, PC12020(b)(26) provides for the LCMP as an exemption for importation of LCM's (just one part of PC12020(a)(2)) if you are licensed under PC12071. PC12020(b)(26) does not provide for the exemption of any other part of PC12020(a), for example a LCMP will not allow you to carry a dirk or dagger (PC12020(a)(4)). PC12020(b)(26) (having a LCMP) also will not allow to sell a LCM to a non-exempt person (another part of PC12020(a)(2)). Similarly (assuming magazines are not "devices"), PC12020(b)(12)&(13) which exempts the sale and manufacture by certain parties of "weapon, device or ammunition" normally prohibited by PC12020(a)(1) does not exempt the manufacture, importation, etc of LCM normally prohibited by PC12020(a)(2).

[dachan]

Again, I have doubts. Throughout the applicable PC, "device" refers to an assembly capable of firing a cartridge, a magazine is not such an assembly.

My doubts are slightly alleviated.

PC12020(c)(25) As used in this section, “large-capacity
magazine” means any ammunition feeding device with
the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not
be construed to include any of the following:
...

Emphasis added.


However,

Each legitimate exemption applies to all of 12020(a).

is still incorrect. PC12020(b)(12)&(13) or PC12020(b)(26) may exempt you from the LCM ban (PC12020(a)(2)), but does not allow you to carry a dirk or dagger (PC12020(a)(4)).

[franklinarmory]

Cool.