COE Benefits

[NYsteveZ]

I just shipped in my C&R today, and I am considering getting a COE too. I was advised that with a COE I can also purchase relic handguns, BUT the handguns I am interested in are NOT 100 years old. Handguns have to be that old to be C&R.
That aside, what is the benefits of a COE? I am into all types of rifles and handguns, but what would I use a COE for? Does it eliminate the 10 day wait?

Just trying to figure out if I should get a COE or a shiny Mosin on Labor day sale at Big 5.

[Cokebottle]

C&R is C&R whether it's 50 years old or on the Federal list.
The handgun issue is different... same rules apply to 03 as to "Joe Blow"... it's not that the COE is not worth anything to a Californian, it is that the 03 itself is worthless for any purpose other than buying from an out of state seller.

Okay... short story:

Non-licensee:
1 - Cash and carry on any long gun 50 years and older from a private party.
2 - Cash and carry on any handgun manufactured 1898 or before.
3 - All dealer sales treated same as a modern firearm (DROS+10 day wait).
4 - 1 handgun every 30 days from dealer stock.

03FFL:
1 - Cash and carry on any long gun 50 years and older from a private party.
2 - Cash and carry on any handgun manufactured 1898 or before.
3 - All dealer sales treated same as a modern firearm (DROS+10 day wait).
4 - 1 handgun every 30 days from dealer stock.
5 - May take direct home delivery from dealer of C&R long guns, or long guns on the BATFE C&R list. Handguns being shipped in from outside of California must still go through an 01FFL.
6 - May make purchases and take possession of C&R long guns and handguns outside of California and bring them home - Must declare the purchase and register handguns upon return to California

03FFL+COE:
1 - Cash and carry on any long gun 50 years and older from a private party.
2 - Cash and carry on any handgun manufactured 1898 or before.
3 - Dealer sales of C&R long guns and handguns exempt from 10-day wait, DROS still required.
4 - Exempt from 1 handgun every 30 days from dealer stock for C&R and modern handguns.
5 - May take direct home delivery from dealer of C&R long guns, or long guns on the BATFE C&R list. Handguns being shipped in from outside of California must still go through an 01FFL.
6 - May make purchases and take possession of C&R long guns and handguns outside of California and bring them home - Must declare the purchase and register handguns upon return to California


The 03FFL is not particularly valuable unless you travel out of state, or purchase long guns from out of state dealers. It's only other advantage is that it does allow for cash-and-carry purchases of long guns that are not yet 50 years old, but are listed as C&R by the BATFE.
For in-state purchases, it's actually a liability because you have to maintain a bound book and are subject to BATFE audits.

The COE adds two primary benefits... elimination of the 10 day wait for C&R purchases, and elimination 1 every 30 handgun limitation.

Also, if DeLeon is ever successful in passing an online ammo ban similar to AB962, the 03FFL plus the COE will likely be a valid exemption (if you can persuade your online ammo dealer to honor the exemption).

[Cokebottle]

BTW: The 100 year thing is not 100 years... it's 1898 or before, and they are considered "Antique" and not considered firearms by the BATFE.
Anyone can purchase them cash-and-carry without the use of an FFL.

C&R are weapons that are manufactured after 1898, but more than 50 years ago, OR are on the BATFE C&R list.
The COE makes no difference in the classification of the weapon.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

...I was advised that with a COE I can also purchase relic handguns...

You do not need a COE to purchase C&R handguns. A C&R license plus a COE will simply allow you to skip the 10 day waiting period when you acquire C&R firearms through a California licensed dealer.

BUT the handguns I am interested in are NOT 100 years old. Handguns have to be that old to be C&R.

There is no such 100 year rule. Handguns only need to be 50 years old to be considered C&R. There are also many newer than 50 year old handguns that are C&R because BATFE has determined them to be more collectable.

That aside, what is the benefits of a COE? I am into all types of rifles and handguns, but what would I use a COE for? Does it eliminate the 10 day wait?

The COE only comes into play when you are acquiring firearms through a California licensed dealer. It does two things...

- It allows a C&R FFL to avoid the 10 day waiting period on C&R firearms acquired through a California licensed dealer. It does not exempt you from the DROS fee or background check though.

- It allows a C&R FFL to avoid the "1 handgun per 30 days" restriction when acquiring both C&R and modern handguns through a California licensed dealer.

[Cokebottle]

There are also many newer than 50 year old handguns that are C&R because BATFE has determined them to be more collectable.

Does this list also apply to non-licensees?
I was under the understanding that it does not, and non-licensed individuals were under the 50-Years-Plus rule.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Does this list also apply to non-licensees?
I was under the understanding that it does not, and non-licensed individuals were under the 50-Years-Plus rule.

C&R firearms are C&R firearms no matter what. The only time it would really matter to a non-licensee though would be when he was acquiring a listed C&R handgun through a California licensed dealer and was able to avoid the Roster because the less than 50 year old handgun was on the C&R list.

[Cokebottle]

C&R firearms are C&R firearms no matter what. The only time it would really matter to a non-licensee though would be when he was acquiring a listed C&R handgun through a California licensed dealer and was able to avoid the Roster because the less than 50 year old handgun was on the C&R list.

Ya... no difference on handguns other than the roster, but what about long guns, for example, the Yugo 59/66 (I know the GL makes it a DD so it's illegal in California anyways, but as an example...)

59/66 is less than 50 years old (or can't be confirmed to be over 50).
It is on the BATFE C&R list.

Can a non-licensee cash-and-carry such a rifle?

[NYsteveZ]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. For my interests a C&R will benefit me, and the judgement is still out on the COE. I will basically have a C&R and COE, meaning I can purchase C&R stuff-no wait. I keep all my purchases in state anyway, and most if not all the handguns I would like would be C&R (Makarov, Tokarev etc).
I began to look into an 03FFL, for the sake of being able to purchase a modern long gun with no wait, ordering from out of state etc. but like stated, it is a PAIN. I would be subject to audits, plus, I really dont know if the zoning in my area would be good to go (I live in an apartment). Other than that, the $200 is no problem, and if I were to get audited, I would pretty much only have my guns and a notebook with their info.
One last-Is there any links to what is considered C&R handguns? I know certain ones although C&R would still not be allowed in Ca.

[NYsteveZ]

Ya... no difference on handguns other than the roster, but what about long guns, for example, the Yugo 59/66 (I know the GL makes it a DD so it's illegal in California anyways, but as an example...)

59/66 is less than 50 years old (or can't be confirmed to be over 50).
It is on the BATFE C&R list.

Can a non-licensee cash-and-carry such a rifle?

I dont think the GL is what makes it non-C&R, Like you said, there is no way to confirm it being 50 y.o. I bought a Norinco SKS and same deal-No way to confirm, so LR rules apply. The Russian SKS has the date stamped on it, therefore C&R. However, if the rifle gets bubba-ed with aftermarket stocks etc. its a LR.

[Cokebottle]

It still sounds like you have some confusion as to the nature of the 03FFL and what it allows:

I will basically have a C&R and COE, meaning I can purchase C&R stuff-no wait.

Correct.

I keep all my purchases in state anyway, and most if not all the handguns I would like would be C&R (Makarov, Tokarev etc).

ONLY advantage of the 03 for handguns is when coupled with the COE... eliminates the 10 day wait. No other advantage. All handgun purchases must still go through an 01FFL

Even with both the 03 and COE, you can not have handguns shipped to your door. Without the COE, the 03 is of zero advantage for handguns (and adds the recordkeeping, so it's a net negative).

I began to look into an 03FFL, for the sake of being able to purchase a modern long gun with no wait, ordering from out of state etc. but like stated, it is a PAIN.

03 has no impact on modern long guns or out of state purchases of modern guns.
The 03 is only valid for C&R classified guns.

I really dont know if the zoning in my area would be good to go (I live in an apartment).

Zoning is not an issue. You are not applying for a dealer's license. The 03FFL is a collector's license only.

Other than that, the $200 is no problem, and if I were to get audited, I would pretty much only have my guns and a notebook with their info.

Should be closer to $130 for both... $30 for 3 years on the 03FFL. The COE is $22/year plus the Livescan, which is about $75.

As for the audit, Yes, you need a dedicated "bound book" (3 ring binder is fine). I use a legal size 3-ring binder and this template:

http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/boundbooktemplate.xls

It is formatted to print on 8.5x17 landscape.

Also, do not allow BATFE agents into your home.
When called for an audit, you have the right to have the audit conducted at the local field office.
They do NOT have the right to inspect your safe without a warrant.

Load up your guns and your bound book and take a friend with you.
Have your friend stand guard at the car while you go inside and find out if they want you to bring the guns in or not.

I've been licensed for about 18 months and have not been audited.



From what you describe, it sounds like you should either go with the 03+COE, or nothing. The types of purchases that you describe will not benefit from the 03FFL by itself.


Shorter version of the "short story":
03FFL:
1 - No difference from unlicensed individual on handguns purchased in California.
2 - No difference from unlicensed individual on long guns purchased in California.

In California, the 03FFL advantage only applies to out of state purchases.

03FFL+COE:
1 - Exemption from 10 day wait for C&R guns
2 - Exemption from 1-30 limit for dealer handgun purchases

[Cokebottle]

I dont think the GL is what makes it non-C&R, Like you said, there is no way to confirm it being 50 y.o. I bought a Norinco SKS and same deal-No way to confirm, so LR rules apply. The Russian SKS has the date stamped on it, therefore C&R. However, if the rifle gets bubba-ed with aftermarket stocks etc. its a LR.

I only mentioned the GL because the GL makes it a Destructive Device under California and is illegal.
You can not have a 59/66 with a GL in California... and removal/welding of the GL is a modification that eliminates it's C&R status, so ya... it was a poor example since there's no way to classify the 59/66 as a C&R in California... I was just using it as an example of a gun that is newer than 50 y/o, but is specified as being on the BATFE C&R list.

[TRICKSTER]

Didn't we answer this a month ago?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=462986

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Ya... no difference on handguns other than the roster, but what about long guns, for example, the Yugo 59/66 (I know the GL makes it a DD so it's illegal in California anyways, but as an example...)

59/66 is less than 50 years old (or can't be confirmed to be over 50).
It is on the BATFE C&R list.

Can a non-licensee cash-and-carry such a rifle?

No, a non-licensee Californian can not cash and carry an M59/66. To be exempt from California's dealer transfer requirements a firearm must meet all three of these criteria...

- Must be a long gun
- Must be Federally defined as C&R
- Must be at least 50 years old

The Yugo M59/66 only meets the first two criteria at this time. It's still C&R in California (the Feds don't seem to think removing the grenade launcher is enough to negate the C&R status), which means if you have a COE and a C&R FFL you can skip the 10 day wait when you acquire it through a California dealer.

[Cokebottle]

Oh! Feds are cool with removing/welding the GL?

I always believed that any modification rendered it "Bubba"

[NYsteveZ]

Oh wow, thanks for the info. Yeah, I asked something similar a month ago concerning C&R handguns. And I messed up in my post above thinking an 03 was an 01, which is why I mentioned the $200 fee.
Looking at it now, I am sorry I applied for the C&R, as it has no benefit except for an invitation from the ATF. I was hoping to be able to purchase certain rifles and handguns with less a hassle. I was under the impression, someone in Kentucky with say a Russian SKS would be able to ship his rifle (if hes willing)to me based on my C&R license. I also see guys on here post "Just got my C&R, gonna order some Mosins from Aim!" and have it shipped dealer to door.
I really feel like a baboon. Instead of giving that $30 to an organization like the NRA, I gave it straight to the enemy, with an invite into what I own.