Dros started. Can I add another rifle???

[kemasa]

Can't go both ways. If you can cross out a number and put less, you can cross out a number and put more.

That is funny. You say it "Can't go both ways". I am not sure of how to convince you that it can be acceptable to reduce the number, but not increase. It is common sense, but ...

Why is this not acceptable? Who decided a number should even be on the DROS? Penal Code? I think not.

Look at the requirements for submitting a DROS. I guess you either don't bother to read what you sign or you just don't care.

It is on the document and it really does not matter who decided because it is there.

It does or they would have arrested me already.

Incorrect. It is hard to prove. Give them a signed statement and the documentation as to what you are doing and see what happens. If you say that it is perfectly acceptable, then there is no risk to you to do this, but I know you won't do it.

Federal law defines how long a transaction lasts. State law does not. I thereby follow Federal law and do not violate a non-existent state law. No problem there.

As I have said numerous times before, what is considered a firearm transaction under Federal saw is very different than under CA law. So, yes, there IS a problem.

I do not give out false information. I quote penal code and make logical arguments. I further am clear that in the case of adding long guns to a handgun DROS, my partner doesn't want me to do that. It isn't worth a customer's $25 to argue with her over it. I tell others specifically not to do it either if they don't want to. I am not sure why that bothers you so. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else.

Yes, you do give out false information. You play games with words, don't understand things (such a claiming that handguns are not a firearm transaction), try to mix up Federal law with State law, etc.

Yes, you are promoting something which you do not do, which is hypocritical to me. If you can't convince your partner, why are you trying to convince others? You said that you do it, but then you said that you don't because of your partner, so which is true?

It bothers me because others might listen to you and do it, only to get caught and have a problem and perhaps lose their business and cost them a lot of money. I don't know why you don't get something so simple.

As a board of director on the Calguns Foundation, I evaluate cases and decide what is worthy of our donors support. You have pointed my behavior on this issue to the board and they didn't ask me to stop.

They should or they should make a public statement that it is acceptable. Perhaps they want someone to get caught so that they can try to do something about it.

I guess I will run this by a lawyer again and see if he cares this time. Not sure why he would when no one else does including the CA DOJ.

The CA DOJ you can't do it, so I don't know why you would say that they don't care. It is really hard to catch someone. Give them all the information and see if they decide to care.

I suspect that many just ignore you on this aspect (I have been told this by some), but that is not considering what could happen to someone who listens. You should be honest and up front and say that you don't actually do it, instead of just when you get called on it.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I suspect that many just ignore you on this aspect (I have been told this by some), but that is not considering what could happen to someone who listens. You should be honest and up front and say that you don't actually do it, instead of just when you get called on it.

Show me one thread where I did not make it clear where I stand on the issues. Just one is all it takes.

[kemasa]

I simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting. Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less.

I don't write down any number on the 4473 until the sale is complete after the salesperson signs it.

Show me one thread where I did not make it clear where I stand on the issues. Just one is all it takes.

See above. If you don't do it because of your partner, please explain how you "simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting". Also explain "Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less" when you don't add firearms due to your partner's view on the matter. At a minimum, this is deceptive, which amounts to making false statements.

Yes, after it is pointed out what you actually do, you admit it, so it is not possible to point to a thread, but your first post in this thread on the subject you don't make it clear where you stand on the issue. This is one, so is that all it takes or are you going to make up an excuse and claim because you later said the truth that it does not count?

[tenpercentfirearms]

See above. If you don't do it because of your partner, please explain how you "simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting". Also explain "Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less" when you don't add firearms due to your partner's view on the matter. At a minimum, this is deceptive, which amounts to making false statements.

Yes, after it is pointed out what you actually do, you admit it, so it is not possible to point to a thread, but your first post in this thread on the subject you don't make it clear where you stand on the issue. This is one, so is that all it takes or are you going to make up an excuse and claim because you later said the truth that it does not count?

As usual, you are confused. I cross out the number on long gun DROS and put the correct number. It is is more, fine. If it is less, fine. I add additional long guns prior to signing the 4473. My partner has zero issues with that. As I have stated before publicly for the DOJ to read, we do that.

What my partner does not want me to do is add long guns onto a handgun DROS. So that is the one you are looking for, but won't find.

Again, what does this have to do with the penal code? Nothing. Just more of your hand wringing trying to catch me up on something that isn't there because your position in the penal code isn't defensible.

Anyway, I just e-mailed my lawyer. We will see what he says. Don't hold your breathe as it is probably going to be just as slow as the last time I asked.

[kemasa]

No, Wes, I am not confused.

Actually, it does have something to do with the penal code since there are requirements there. You don't want to understand that if you sell a firearm on Monday, then sell another one on Friday, it is not part of a single sale and that even if it was, you would have to wait 10 days after the sale on Friday, as required by the CA PC. You also have a problem with understanding the word "single", which the Federal law does not discuss, but that is best ignored so that your can try to keep your position.

What did he say the last time you asked?

Oh, no comment about what you sign?

[tenpercentfirearms]

No, Wes, I am not confused.

Actually, it does have something to do with the penal code since there are requirements there. You don't want to understand that if you sell a firearm on Monday, then sell another one on Friday, it is not part of a single sale and that even if it was, you would have to wait 10 days after the sale on Friday, as required by the CA PC.

The penal code in qestion.

12071(b)(3) No firearm shall be delivered:
(A) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after notice by the department pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12076, within 10 days of the submission to the department of any correction to the application, or within 10 days of the submission to the department of any fee required pursuant to subdivision (e) of Section 12076, whichever is later.

Let's break it down into three chunks.

(A) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after notice by the department pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12076,

within 10 days of the submission to the department of any correction to the application

or within 10 days of the submission to the department of any fee required pursuant to subdivision (e) of Section 12076, whichever is later.

So part one, the customer applies to purchase. It doesn't say anything about being limited to the number you applied for. It just says applies to purchase. We are in the clear there.

Part two, if I don't submit any corrections to the application, then I don't have to wait ten more days. This however, is a great question because if you submit a DROS correction on a handgun, does that mean the 10 days has to re-start? That is an interesting can of worms.

So to get around this I simply cross out the incorrect data and keep it on file. No submission, no restart of the ten days.

Part three, the fee goes in at the start of the ten days so we are clear there as well.

The only space for your argument is when I submit a correction to the application. However, that means a whole lot of people are violating this one in changing the DROS online. We need to go look up that code some more. If I don't submit the changes, then I am not bound to the new ten days.

We will also have to read up on the requirements for errors, corrections, or just plain changes.

Work on it kemasa and let us know what you find. I'll look later today. I gotta get down to the shop.

[kemasa]

There are also other PC sections as well. There is the SINGLE sale aspect, which you want to look at in strange ways. As I said, get a known firearms attorney to give a legal opinion on it which hold to what you claim and then you might have something. Get it in writing.

[tenpercentfirearms]

There are also other PC sections as well. There is the SINGLE sale aspect, which you want to look at in strange ways. As I said, get a known firearms attorney to give a legal opinion on it which hold to what you claim and then you might have something. Get it in writing.

I'll ask one final time. Where in the penal code does it defnite how long a single sale lasts? And for one final time, you tell me it isn't in there and generally the DOJ thinks it is a day, but it could be until they walk out the door, but it also could be a week, or it could be anything under 30 days. There is no state definition of how long a single sale lasts. Only Federal.

[kemasa]

Go look at a dictionary and stop playing games. Quite clearly singles does not mean multiple and that is what you are trying to claim that it is. It could not be a week nor anything over a day, at the most. The problem is that if you get charged, you are going to be laughed at if you try to make those claims in court. No reasonable person would say that selling two different firearms on two different days is a single sale.

Let's reverse it, where do you claim that single can be anything other than the dictionary definition or be over 1 day, at the most? You keep trying to use the Federal law, but that is bogus. I could ask you where many things are defined in the PC since there are many things which are not because it is assumed that words have common meanings. If they did what you want, the PC would be infinite in size and length as they would have to define everything six ways from Sunday.

Don't play games, don't make things worse. If you look at the changes with the PPT, you will see those changes came because of the abuse. Do you really want each and every firearm to have to be submitted on a separate DROS?

Why don't you take a poll and ask how many people think it is legal, not just that they think that they can get away with it?

[tenpercentfirearms]

Go look at a dictionary and stop playing games. Quite clearly singles does not mean multiple and that is what you are trying to claim that it is. It could not be a week nor anything over a day, at the most. The problem is that if you get charged, you are going to be laughed at if you try to make those claims in court. No reasonable person would say that selling two different firearms on two different days is a single sale.

Actually, many, many people do. In fact, the Feds say a single sale lasts until the 4473 is signed. So a single sale could last up to 30 days.

Let's reverse it, where do you claim that single can be anything other than the dictionary definition or be over 1 day, at the most? You keep trying to use the Federal law, but that is bogus. I could ask you where many things are defined in the PC since there are many things which are not because it is assumed that words have common meanings. If they did what you want, the PC would be infinite in size and length as they would have to define everything six ways from Sunday.

Again, a single sale of multiple long guns can happen over a series of days. Until money is finished changing hands and the paperwork is closed, the sale isn't over. It is pretty common in the business world. A guy brings in a tractor for maintenance. You might sell him a part on one day, find out he needs another part another day, and then finish it up on the fourth day. He pays one bill for several different items bought over a few days. It really is pretty simple.

Don't play games, don't make things worse. If you look at the changes with the PPT, you will see those changes came because of the abuse. Do you really want each and every firearm to have to be submitted on a separate DROS?

The classic, "Don't wake he sleeping giant" argument. If I upset our masters, then they might take it away from us. Ok, I am totally screwing with you. Please don't even respond.

Why don't you take a poll and ask how many people think it is legal, not just that they think that they can get away with it?

Your poll got shut down before. Start it again. I won't comment in it. I will just cast my vote. Make sure to keep the voting anonymous. Your poll means nothing, but if it makes you feel better.

[kemasa]

Why don't you get that what the Feds consider to be a firearm transaction is different than what CA considers to be a firearm transaction? Do you fill out a separate 4473 for each handgun like you have to submit a separate DROS for each handgun? Either you are playing games or you just don't understand.

Please show where in the CA PC this is defined:

Again, a single sale of multiple long guns can happen over a series of days.

There are not the same limits on tractor parts as firearms. Nice strawman though. Again, more games, more trying to apply different things to ignore what the actual CA PC says. You just don't want to admit that "single" means "single".

You do the poll. Perhaps those in power don't want to see how people feel about it or some other reason. The poll would means something, it would show how others feel. You should be able, considering your position, to get an attorney associated with CalGuns to comment on this.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Please show where in the CA PC this is defined:

You show me where it is defined. That is what cracks me up. There is no state definition of how long a transaction lasts. That is why I can make it last as long as I want. Well almost as long as I want since I still have to comply with the federal definiton and I also can't go past the 30 day DROS limit.

[kemasa]

You have seen the section where it says "single sale", but you are making things up claiming that a sale can last several days, which does not match with the single sale aspect. There is absolutely no basis for your claim that under CA law that a single sale can last multiple days.

Under what basis can you make it last as long as you want? None. Two firearms purchased on different days can not be part of a single sale unless the DROS is submitted after the second firearm is included. Once the DROS is submitted the sale is over as you have reported the sale. You do know what DROS stand for, don't you?

You have also ignored the aspect of always claiming 20 firearms and why you can't do that.

[BannedinBritain]

You have seen the section where it says "single sale", but you are making things up claiming that a sale can last several days, which does not match with the single sale aspect. There is absolutely no basis for your claim that under CA law that a single sale can last multiple days.

Under what basis can you make it last as long as you want? None. Two firearms purchased on different days can not be part of a single sale unless the DROS is submitted after the second firearm is included. Once the DROS is submitted the sale is over as you have reported the sale. You do know what DROS stand for, don't you?

You have also ignored the aspect of always claiming 20 firearms and why you can't do that.

Why wouldn't the "sale" be complete when the date and time of pick up is filled in on the DROS, just like the "sale" isn't complete on the 4473 until the transferee and I sign for pick up?

[kemasa]

Because it is the law, it does not have to make sense. The transaction is complete when the 4473 is signed, that is not really the same thing as the sale.

There is a waiting period of 10 days, is it before the sale?