More FUD?

[tenpercentfirearms]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Are in-state dealers exempt from the roster? I don't think they are, so it shouldn't be possible to transfer a non-rostered handgun to our personal collection. If someone comes in with an off-roster handgun, accepts a low-ball offer, we can
1) bring it into our inventory and then only sell it out of state or to a roster exempt individual. Once in our inventory, we cannot transfer it to ourselves since we are not roster exempt. However, as long as it is in our inventory, we can use it (try it out, etc.) keeping in mind the laws concerning moving inventory off the licensed premises. Or
2) Perform a PPT and bring it directly into our personal collection. Federal law exempts us from a 4473, but state law requires the PPT DROS. We still need to log the firearm into our bound book, and out to our personal collection. State law also exempts us from the waiting period. After 1yr in our personal collection, Federal allows us to sell it without bringing it into our inventory and therefore makes it PPT'able. Within one year, Federal law says it must be brought into our inventory, and thereby making it a dealer sale and no longer roster exempt.

Therefore, #2 allows us to re-sell a non-rostered handgun (via PPT), but only after one year and requires the cost of the initial PPT.


Edit:
A 3rd alternative could possibly be to go another dealer and perform a PPT DROS, complete a 4473, and wait 10days like a regular individual. In that case, it would not be necessary to enter the firearm into either our bound book or personal collection book since the transaction is recorded in the 3rd party dealer's book. Done this way, the firearm is immediately PPT'able, again since it was not acquired through your FFL. Interestingly, this does require a HSC because even dealers authorized to issue an HSC through additional licensing are not HSC exempt. In the past, BSFC instructors were exempt from the BSFC requirement. But that's a whole different issue.

#1 is correct. Now what are the rules for moving firearms off the premises? As long as they are with an employee, you can take them off for demo and other lawful purposes to your heart's desire.

#2: You could in theory PPT it without a 4473, but you would have to do a DROS and then you would have to sit on it for a year. If you PPTed it with a 4473, you still have to do the DROS, but then you could sell it within a year.

I am not sure why the BATFE is making everyone think that bringing a PPT into your bound book makes it the gun shop's gun. If that were the case, then we couldn't PPT for anyone as they would all be transfers and not PPTs.

The entire point of this law is to keep dealers from conducting face to face sales (or other exempt sales like intrafamilial transfer) without their license or tracking on the side. Once you use a 4473, it is properly being tracked, so the rule does not apply.

We are in a unique situation in CA where we do not have to worry about circumventing this law as everything gets DROSed so there are no face to face sales.

#3 alternate: PPTing it some where else and at your shop is the same. However if you are concerned about a paper trail in your own audit, this would reduce the odds of your auditor noticing you are PPTing guns. Personally, I would just do it at my own shop as I feel my reading of the law is pretty solid on this one. As soon as you do a 4473, those rules do not apply. Second, I have seen no prohibitions on selling guns to yourself. So if you 4473, you are good to go.

Additionally the HSC requirement should be moot based on your having a CCW.

[jtmkinsd]

I am not trying to tread jack; however, this topic seems to tie into the 1 in 30 days rule. As I understand the rule, only one new FFL purchase of a handgun each 30 days. But, you can buy as many used and on consignment handguns as you want in a 30 day period. This being the case because the consigned handguns are not "really" in the FFL's inventory, and are in fact a PPT transfer? If I am correct on this, the 1 in 30 days rule sure doesn't make much sense at any level. Am I right in my understanding of this "new" vs. "consigned" difference?

Don't think of it as new vs. used, because it's actually any "dealer transfer" of a handgun (new or used) subjects the buyer to the 30 day wait to dealer transfer another used or new handgun.

A good rule of thumb is if it's shipped in for transfer...it is probably subject to 1 in 30 rule.

[kemasa]

The person I talked to asked the question of the legal department. You posted the code section, which talks about the FFL needing to have it for one year. It seems like it should allow for a transfer which goes through a dealer, but that is not how the BATF seems to view it as they say is has to go back to the FFL's book (inventory), not someone else. If it goes back into your inventory, then it can not be done as a PPT, although the CA DOJ would never know and is not a BATF issue.

During the process of a PPT, yes, the FFL basically "owns" the firearm, although there is no money interest. If not the FFL, who owns the firearm? You have to finish the transfer to the new owner or transfer it back to the previous owner. When you get a firearm delivered to you, but someone else has paid for it, who owns it?

I think that if you do a PPT to transfer it to yourself and fill out a 4473, you would bypass the 1 year requirement. Also, the HSC instructor card number is your HSC number and FFLs are exempt from the waiting period, even if you do the transaction at another location (see waiting period exemptions, CFD number).

As said, the 1 in 30 depends on how it is processed, dealer sale vs. PPT. A FFL might process a consignment as a PPT or a dealer sale, so you have to look at the paperwork.

[Hopalong]

Thanks , guys.

But my head hurts.

If I only lived in AZ.

[tenpercentfirearms]

The person I talked to asked the question of the legal department. You posted the code section, which talks about the FFL needing to have it for one year. It seems like it should allow for a transfer which goes through a dealer, but that is not how the BATF seems to view it as they say is has to go back to the FFL's book (inventory), not someone else. If it goes back into your inventory, then it can not be done as a PPT, although the CA DOJ would never know and is not a BATF issue.

This makes sense. You can't FTF (remember, no FTFs in CA) it if it comes out of your inventory. However, all PPTs have to go through your inventory. So there is nothing prohibiting you from PTPing your own personal firearms through your business. By filling out a 4473 to put the handgun into your personal collection, you do not have to wait a year. By 4473ing the gun in your personal collection back to someone else through a 4473 and the PPT process, you are further preserving trace data.

I think that if you do a PPT to transfer it to yourself and fill out a 4473, you would bypass the 1 year requirement. Also, the HSC instructor card number is your HSC number and FFLs are exempt from the waiting period, even if you do the transaction at another location (see waiting period exemptions, CFD number).

As said, the 1 in 30 depends on how it is processed, dealer sale vs. PPT. A FFL might process a consignment as a PPT or a dealer sale, so you have to look at the paperwork.

I agree. Now we just need to educate the BATFE as I think they look at this whole issue through the lens of Free America and FTFs and not the mandatory DROS process here in California that mandates a 4473 transfer.

Again on long guns the key would be to do a 4473 on your long guns too. You are still DROS exempt even if you were 4473 your long guns.

(I just hashed this out from the DOJ as far as the corporate officers go. As a corporate officer, federally I cannot sign guns out as "for owner's personal collection" anymore. I must 4473 all firearms. However, the State doesn't care. They say if I have a FFL and a COE (basically if I am on the CFD coversheet), they don't require a DROS. So I can still take guns home that day, I just have to 4473 only (NO DROS) long guns and of course we always have to DROS handguns. However, we are still 10 day exempt on the handguns).

[TripleT]

Holey Moley time for a flowchart...

[kemasa]

You are incorrect. You are making assumptions which are just not true. For a consignment, the FFL could process it as a dealer sale, which would make the 1 in 30 apply or the FFL could process it as a PPT, in which case the 1 in 30 would not apply. If a used firearm was shipped to a FFL, then the 1 in 30 would apply. If the FFL sold a used firearm in dealer inventory, then the 1 in 30 would apply.

What matters is how the FFL does the transfer.

You are also incorrect when you say that it is a Federal rule that firearms have to be transferred to a FFL, it is a CA state law. The Federal law is regarding two people who are residents of different states.

I would strongly suggest that you listen to your own advice and not give bogus advice, which is what you are doing. Also realize that what defines whether a firearm is new or used is whether it has been shot, so a person could be selling a NIB firearm and not be a dealer.

Summary, jtmkinsd is correct. You want to argue with me? I am a FFL.

[kemasa]

I am not trying to tread jack; however, this topic seems to tie into the 1 in 30 days rule. As I understand the rule, only one new FFL purchase of a handgun each 30 days. But, you can buy as many used and on consignment handguns as you want in a 30 day period. This being the case because the consigned handguns are not "really" in the FFL's inventory, and are in fact a PPT transfer? If I am correct on this, the 1 in 30 days rule sure doesn't make much sense at any level. Am I right in my understanding of this "new" vs. "consigned" difference?

So, you ask a question, told you were wrong and then claim that those who told you were wrong are wrong. Quite sad.

No, the law, not rule, regards dealer transfers, whether the firearm is new or used does not matter. You should know that it is the law, not just a rule.

No, you can not buy as many used firearms as you want in 30 days. PPTs are exempt. A FFL can process a consignment as either a dealer transfer or a PPT. That makes the difference.

So, no, you are not correct on the law. While it does not make much sense, that is a different issue.

Please get your facts straight before you accuse others of giving incorrect information. In this case, you are the one giving incorrect information and making false claims against a person who gave correct information.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Well I certainly want to thank you for your kind advice on this matter; however, I elect not heed you offered words of wisdom because you are sadly wrong. I don't want others who read this thread to accept your opinion on this matter as being correct.

[TripleT]

Hate it when that happens...

[jtmkinsd]

Well I certainly want to thank you for your kind advice on this matter; however, I elect not heed you offered words of wisdom because you are sadly wrong. I don't want others who read this thread to accept your opinion on this matter as being correct.

I invite you to check with a gun store/FFL of you choice on the application of the handgun 1 in 30 days rule. A new handgun is being sold to you by the FFL, from the dealer's own inventory, for the first time in California. California's 1 in 30 rule only applies to a new handgun sale. Direct family transfers, private party transfers, and used guns on consignment are not subject to the 1 in 30 rule. These are only transfers made to satisfy the federal rule that all guns that change hands get transferred through a FFL.

In other words, you may go into your local FFL dealer and purchase 1 new handgun from the dealer, plus 3 used handguns that the dealer has on consignment (not owned by the dealer), and there is no violation of the 1 in 30 rule. All 4 guns will transfer at once, subject only to the 10 day waiting period. If you attempt to buy 2 new handguns and 2 used handguns that are on consignment, only 3 will be allowed. . .only 1 new, and the 2 consigned. Likewise, I can take 3 of my handguns into my FFL, along with my adult son and all 3 will transfer from me to my son, through the FFL, all at once, subject only to the 10 waiting period and the payment of dealer transfer fees. This also applies to private party transfers. A used gun on consignment is really just like a private party transfer.

A good rule of thumb that I like to follow is don't give bogus advice, because some poor soul just might believe you.

Please see the sig line quoted below.

[halifax]

LOL.

Yep, all you FFLs in this FFL forum need to check with a real FFL before spreading wrong information.

[kemasa]

Ok, so who is a "real FFL"? :-)

12072 (9) (A) No person shall make an application to purchase more than
one handgun within any 30-day period.
(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to any of the following:
(i) Any law enforcement agency.
(ii) Any agency duly authorized to perform law enforcement duties.
(iii) Any state or local correctional facility.
(iv) Any private security company licensed to do business in
California.
(v) Any person who is properly identified as a full-time paid
peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section
830) of Title 3 of Part 2, and who is authorized to, and does carry a
firearm during the course and scope of his or her employment as a
peace officer.
(vi) Any motion picture, television, or video production company
or entertainment or theatrical company whose production by its nature
involves the use of a firearm.
(vii) Any person who may, pursuant to Section 12078, claim an
exemption from the waiting period set forth in subdivision (c) of
this section.
(viii) Any transaction conducted through a licensed firearms
dealer pursuant to Section 12082.
(ix) Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto and who has a
current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the
Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.
(x) The exchange of a handgun where the dealer purchased that
firearm from the person seeking the exchange within the 30-day period
immediately preceding the date of exchange or replacement.
(xi) The replacement of a handgun when the person's handgun was
lost or stolen, and the person reported that firearm lost or stolen
prior to the completion of the application to purchase to any local
law enforcement agency of the city, county, or city and county in
which he or she resides.
(xii) The return of any handgun to its owner.
(xiii) Community colleges that are certified by the Commission on
Peace Officer Standards and Training to present the law enforcement
academy basic course or other commission-certified law enforcement
training.

I personally don't see any mention about new or used handguns in the law, but perhaps I am not a "real FFL" :-).

[tenpercentfirearms]

I personally don't see any mention about new or used handguns in the law, but perhaps I am not a "real FFL" :-).

I still have my doubts!

[kemasa]

I could ask what you have your doubts about, but I am sure that I know the answer and it is not about the firearms and the 1 in 30.