More FUD?

[Hopalong]

I've been looking for a Series 80 Colt Commander forever.

Since it's not on the Roster, it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

Every time I pass a gun shop, I stop in and see what they have on
consignment.

I go into this little shop today and ask the guy what he has on consignment, and tell him what I'm looking for.

He says he has one in the safe, in nickel, but he can't sell it to me, because he owns it.

He says he has 300 guns in the safe that he can't sell, (except out of state) because since he is a FFL. he is not a "private citizen" and therefore cannot sell PPT guns that he owns.

He says that when someone comes into his store to sell a gun, he can either sell it on consignment (PPT) or offer the guy a price right then, usually a low ball offer.

If the guy choses to take the low ball offer, then the shop owner owns the gun, and he cannot sell it PPT in California.

Is this true?

[mej16489]

If the FFL brings a non-roster item into his inventory, a CA purchaser must be roster-exempt.

Edit: I'm not an FFL, the above is simply my understanding...

[TripleT]

Not sure exactly which Commander you are looking for but there are three on the roster:

04012XSE Combat Commander / Stainless Steel (brushed) Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP
04091U / Stainless Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP
04691 / Carbon Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP

In fact I have one of the 04691's in stock as I'm sure many CA FFL's have.

Are you looking for a different Colt ?

[kemasa]

The FFL can sell it, but to do it as a PPT, it has to be a year after it was transferred to the FFL's personal collection. If it is in inventory, then it could not be sold until after it is transferred to the FFL and then waiting a year.

[tenpercentfirearms]

The FFL can sell it, but to do it as a PPT, it has to be a year after it was transferred to the FFL's personal collection. If it is in inventory, then it could not be sold until after it is transferred to the FFL and then waiting a year.

Not true if the transaction is recorded on a 4473. I am too tired to look it up though. It is in the federal code some where and we have definitely discussed it in their forum somewhere.

I found it.

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That (1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, (2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by 478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition, (3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, and (4) The licensee enters the sale or other disposition of the firearm from the personal firearms collection into a bound record, under the format prescribed below, identifying the firearm transferred by recording the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge, and showing the date of the sale or other disposition, the name and address of the transferee, or the name and business address of the transferee if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a drivers license). The format required for the disposition record of personal firearms is as follows: Disposition Record of Personal Firearms ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Description of firearm Disposition ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name and address Manufacturer and/ Model Serial No. Type Caliber or Date (business Date of birth if or importer gauge address if nonlicensee licensee) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (b) Any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of a firearm from the licensee's personal firearms collection under this section shall be subject to the restrictions imposed by the Act and this part on the dispositions of firearms by persons other than licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and licensed dealers. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512 0387) [T.D. ATF270, 53 FR 10504, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF313, 56 FR 32509, July 17, 1991; T.D. ATF415, 63 FR 58280, Oct. 29, 1998]

Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/478-personal...#ixzz1DdCWkskQ

So in order to sell a firearm out of your personal collection without using a 4473, you must keep it for a year. If you use a 4473, no such stipulation is required as you are using a 4473.

This must keep it a year rule is really for out of state dealers who would put personal guns into inventory and then unload them face to face outside of their business. Since everything in CA is pretty much PPT through a dealer (except intrafamilial), then this "keep it for a year rule" is pretty much pointless.

[Hopalong]

Thanks for your responses guys, but please excuse my ignorance and confusion

I read through that law several times

Is this the synopsis? That it depends into which book the original transaction is recorded?

Meaning that if the original transaction is recorded into inventory rather than DROSing into a personal collection via PPT, then the year wait is necessary?

But if DROSed right from the beginning into a personal collection, then the gun could be turned over immediately via PPT?

If this were the case, would not the FFL, if he were to DROS the gun either originally, or later, to his personal collection

Do this paperwork via an independent FFL, to avoid the appearance of any impropriety?

What's the bottom line on this, the Cliff Notes version?

[tenpercentfirearms]

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection:

No, it doesn't matter how you take possession of it for your own personal collection. It only matters how you "sale or other disposition" of it. So if you sign it out without a 4473 and put "owner's personal collection", if you remove it from your personal collection and do not want to comply with 478.102 or use a 4473, you must keep it for a year and then follow all of the other guidelines. Put it on a 4473 (which you do in CA anyway) and you can sell as soon as you want.

[Hopalong]

So this gun shop owner who thinks he has a safe with 300 guns that he can only sell out of state

Either did not put these guns on a 4473, or just doesn't understand the law?

Wow, what a way to run a business

300 guns that are bought and paid for, taking up space

And he thinks he can't sell them, even though he has buyers

I might add that he went into a rant about his 14th amendment rights being violated

[Hopalong]

Not sure exactly which Commander you are looking for but there are three on the roster:

04012XSE Combat Commander / Stainless Steel (brushed) Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP
04091U / Stainless Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP
04691 / Carbon Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP

In fact I have one of the 04691's in stock as I'm sure many CA FFL's have.

Are you looking for a different Colt ?

I'm actually in the market for the 9mm version which is not on the roster

But may go ahead and get a 45 anyway

All the shops I talk to around here say that Colt's are extremely hard to get.

What's the price on your 04691?

[kemasa]

This was discussed recently and I talked to the BATF. What I was told is that the FFL has to transfer it back to their inventory, which implies that it could not be done as a PPT at that point as it is now it is in inventory.

[tenpercentfirearms]

This was discussed recently and I talked to the BATF. What I was told is that the FFL has to transfer it back to their inventory, which implies that it could not be done as a PPT at that point as it is now it is in inventory.

Call them back and ask for the code. Also, does that mean you own all customer's PPT guns? You enter them into your bound book when a customer brings them in, does that make them your inventory and unable to PPT them?

Also, you could simply take the PPT to another dealer and it wouldn't need to go into your inventory.

Then again, I think maybe I did read somewhere where maybe we were supposed to put them in our inventory.

Ken see if you can find out more from your BATFE contact and get some numbers from them.

[dachan]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Are in-state dealers exempt from the roster? I don't think they are, so it shouldn't be possible to transfer a non-rostered handgun to our personal collection. If someone comes in with an off-roster handgun, accepts a low-ball offer, we can
1) bring it into our inventory and then only sell it out of state or to a roster exempt individual. Once in our inventory, we cannot transfer it to ourselves since we are not roster exempt. However, as long as it is in our inventory, we can use it (try it out, etc.) keeping in mind the laws concerning moving inventory off the licensed premises. Or
2) Perform a PPT and bring it directly into our personal collection. Federal law exempts us from a 4473, but state law requires the PPT DROS. We still need to log the firearm into our bound book, and out to our personal collection. State law also exempts us from the waiting period. After 1yr in our personal collection, Federal allows us to sell it without bringing it into our inventory and therefore makes it PPT'able. Within one year, Federal law says it must be brought into our inventory, and thereby making it a dealer sale and no longer roster exempt.

Therefore, #2 allows us to re-sell a non-rostered handgun (via PPT), but only after one year and requires the cost of the initial PPT.


Edit:
A 3rd alternative could possibly be to go another dealer and perform a PPT DROS, complete a 4473, and wait 10days like a regular individual. In that case, it would not be necessary to enter the firearm into either our bound book or personal collection book since the transaction is recorded in the 3rd party dealer's book. Done this way, the firearm is immediately PPT'able, again since it was not acquired through your FFL. Interestingly, this does require a HSC because even dealers authorized to issue an HSC through additional licensing are not HSC exempt. In the past, BSFC instructors were exempt from the BSFC requirement. But that's a whole different issue.

[jtmkinsd]

Interestingly, this does require a HSC because dealers are not HSC exempt despite being authorized to issue HSC's. In the past, BSFC instructors were exempt from the BSFC requirement. But that's a whole different issue.

Being a dealer does not authorize one to issue HSC's. I had to go sit through a training course (yes, it was a complete waste of time) for a couple hours to become an HSC "certified instructor". That gives the authority to issue HSC cards.

[dachan]

Being a dealer does not authorize one to issue HSC's. I had to go sit through a training course (yes, it was a complete waste of time) for a couple hours to become an HSC "certified instructor". That gives the authority to issue HSC cards.

Correct and clarified in OP.

[Hopalong]

Seems to me since there is some confusion here that

Dachan's #3 alternative, even though a PIA,

Would be sure to keep the FFL safe from any misinterpretation of the law

Bottom line for me is, it seems like I opened up a can of worms

And it's no wonder that the guy with the 300 guns in his safe

Is afraid to sell them in this state