FFL "limbo"

[EBR Works]

Let's say that someone in California has received their FFL 07 but has not yet finished the approval process with Cali DOJ and is still waiting out the bureaucratic delays. Let's also say that said FFL 07 finds himself at a gun show in Arizona. Can said FFL directly acquire Cali legal firearms at that gun show, physically take delivery and carry them back to Cali?

Can said FFL 07 also manufacture and sell ammunition while in this state of limbo?

All hypothetical of course....

[halifax]

Let's say that someone in California has received their FFL 07 but has not yet finished the approval process with Cali DOJ and is still waiting out the bureaucratic delays. Let's also say that said FFL 07 finds himself at a gun show in Arizona. Can said FFL directly acquire Cali legal firearms at that gun show, physically take delivery and carry them back to Cali?

....

a CFLC approval would still be needed on the guns...so, I'd think not.

[kemasa]

As stated, the CFLC letter is required, so you would not be able to get that.

[ke6guj]

the CFLC letter is required, even if he is not a CA dealer, and the transaction is happening entirely outside of the state?

[kemasa]

Yes, strange as it seems. When the CA FFL returns to CA, they are shipping the firearm into CA, so the letter is required. I asked about this and the answer really did not make sense since it would be the CA FFL who is actually "shipping" the firearm.

[halifax]

He said he was going to bring them back into CA; so, he'd need to follow CA law, I believe.

[ke6guj]

interesting. I haven't read that portion of the PCthat much, but did see this:

(f)(1) (A) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the department.

if the buying FFL is not currently IN CA, I'm not sure how it would apply.

I'll have to read up on this more when I get home, but wouldnt this be similar to how CA law does not apply to a C&R 03FFL who buys C&R handguns while physically out-of-state. CA law does not apply to the transfer, but does apply to the importation of the C&R handgun when the 03FFL comes back to CA.

[EBR Works]

The FFL 03 scenario that ke6guj mentioned was consistent with my line of thinking, but the PC posted sure seems to prohibit this.

Anyone care to comment on the ammunition manufacture/sale question?

[ke6guj]

The FFL 03 scenario that ke6guj mentioned was consistent with my line of thinking, but the PC posted sure seems to prohibit this.

I still read it as only applying to an FFL who is IN CA. If you are an CA FFL who is currently not IN the state, and take physical possession while OUTSIDE the state, I would opine that 12072(f)(1) (A) does not apply to the transfering FFL.



I did find something funny in the code.

(f)(1) (A) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the department. If Internet service is unavailable to either the department of the licensee due to a technical or other malfunction, or a federal firearms licensee who is located outside California does not possess a computer or have Internet access, alternate means of communication, including facsimile or telephone, shall be made available for a licensee to obtain a verification number in order to comply with this section. This subdivision shall not apply to the delivery, sale, or transfer of a short-barreled rifle, or short-barreled shotgun, as defined in Section 12020, or to a machinegun as defined in Section 12200, or to an assault weapon as defined in Sections 12276, 12276.1, and 12276.5. (B)

It would appear that FFLs shipping AOWs (like the Serbu Super Shorty) do not need to have a CFLC approval before they ship in that CA-defined SBS into the state

[EBR Works]

I still read it as only applying to an FFL who is IN CA. If you are an CA FFL who is currently not IN the state, and take physical possession while OUTSIDE the state, I would opine that 12072(f)(1) (A) does not apply to the transfering FFL.



I did find something funny in the code.

It would appear that FFLs shipping AOWs (like the Serbu Super Shorty) do not need to have a CFLC approval before they ship in that CA-defined SBS into the state

Interesting. Now the challenge would be to convince the transferring FFL of this.

[kemasa]

I talked to the CA DOJ and while it might not be the way the law is, it is how they enforce it (just like the high capacity magazine ban). They consider a CA FFL to be in CA even when the person is outside of a CA, the business FFL is still in CA.

Even if you were to claim that the non-CA FFL did not need to generate the letter, the CA FFL would need to get the letter when they bring in the firearm to CA. If/when you are inspected, they will expect a CFLC letter for each firearm which comes from a dealer. If you list it as coming from a person (if the person's name is listed on the FFL) and the address, then they might not notice and demand to see the letter. I think it is bogus, but that is how the CA DOJ views it.

[ke6guj]

yah, I could see them saying that if they see a firearm listed as coming from another FFL, that it is assumed that it happened in state, and there needs to be a CFLC notatiion for that. I bet, based on the law, a ballsy FFL could argue that there wasn't a violation of 12072(f)(1) if the entire transaction happened out of state. But is it worth it to push it on that, probably not.

[EBR Works]

Thanks for the unfortunate clarification.

[Santa Cruz Armory]

Sending PM.

[kemasa]

You would also have to address the issue of the CA FFL "shipping" (aka bringing in) the firearm and not following the law and getting the letter, which would be interesting to see if the system allows a FFL to claim that they are shipping a firearm to their own address.