FFL selling personal gun.

[oso grande]

Local FFL bought gun before he got license. Can he PPT his off list pistol to me?
Thanks for your input.

OG

[jtmkinsd]

Local FFL bought gun before he got license. Can he PPT his off list pistol to me?
Thanks for your input.

OG

Not a PPT (private party transfer), he would have to transfer the firearm from his personal book to his inventory book, then he could do a dealer transfer to you.

A dealer may transfer any firearm the same as any non-licensee as long as the firearm was not entered into his personal bound book less than a year from the date of transfer.

[halifax]

Not a PPT (private party transfer), he would have to transfer the firearm from his personal book to his inventory book, then he could do a dealer transfer to you.

Wait a minute, if I have a non-rostered handgun that I have owned since before I became a licensee, I can't engage myself in a PPT!!!

[ke6guj]

that is an interesting question. I know that federal law says that if you convert a firearm from your FFL to your personal property, that you must wait at least one year before you can transfer it privately. If you sell it less than a year from when it was logged out, you must log it back into your bound book and then 4473 it out to the buyer. That is to help prevent dealers from selling firearms to people without having to do the dealer paperwork.

regarding a firearm that was never on your books in the first place, I dunno what law would require him to treat it as a dealer sale.

[halifax]

What if we (buyer and seller) just went to another dealer for the PPT?

[kemasa]

I called the BATF and expect to get an confirmation back later, but the first answer is that as long as the firearm is transferred through a FFL, which is required in CA, then it does not matter and so the FFL can go to another FFL and do it as a PPT.

In the above case, since the firearm was purchased before the person had a FFL, the one year requirement to run it through the FFL's books does not apply. The person (the FFL in this case), is free to transfer the firearm in any legal way, such as a PPT through another dealer or even doing it himself. There is no requirement to run personal firearms through the FFL's books.

The one year requirement is to prevent a FFL from transferring a firearm to their own personal collection, then immediately selling it on the streets (other states do not have a requirement that private parties have to do the transfer through a FFL).

[jtmkinsd]

Wait a minute, if I have a non-rostered handgun that I have owned since before I became a licensee, I can't engage myself in a PPT!!!

my apologies...I misread the question badly...kemasa is correct, the only requirement is the one year time lapse between transfer to personal book and sale.

[kemasa]

Oh, there is also the issue of "shipping" the firearm, even if it is brought to the other FFL. Since the seller is a FFL, the delivery of a firearm to another FFL requires the CFLC. I don't think that there is any exemption for personal firearms of the FFL.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I hashed this out some where else before.

The actual code says you cannot do a face to face transaction within a year of buying something for your personal collection. If you want to sell something from your personal collection, it must go on a 4473 or you must wait a year. Since we do everything in CA on a 4473 (at least private party transfers), then that one year exemption does not apply.

That rules is mainly made for Free America where face to face transfers can still occur.

[kemasa]

Yep.

[kemasa]

I got the response back from the BATF, who spoke to the legal department. The law is that if a FFL transfers a firearm to their own personal collection, they have to bring it back into their own book, which means that they don't personally own it at that point and could not do a PPT, only a dealer sale. If it was brought to another FFL, it would be coming from the FFL, not the person.

I doubt that the CA DOJ would have an issue with the DROS being submitted as a PPT, but they could. That is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

[jtmkinsd]

I got the response back from the BATF, who spoke to the legal department. The law is that if a FFL transfers a firearm to their own personal collection, they have to bring it back into their own book, which means that they don't personally own it at that point and could not do a PPT, only a dealer sale. If it was brought to another FFL, it would be coming from the FFL, not the person.

I doubt that the CA DOJ would have an issue with the DROS being submitted as a PPT, but they could. That is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

By "own book", you mean the regular inventory bound book? That was what my original response was suggesting...but I've never sold a personal gun (I'm a hoarder ) so I wasn't 100% sure. And the FAQ on ATF website seems to suggest it's ok to PPT from personal collection as long as you don't do it before a year has elapsed from the time you transfer it to personal log.

[kemasa]

Yes, your bound book. You have to run the firearm through your business if you try to sell it before a year is up. If instead of transferring it to your own personal collection, you transferred it to another FFL and had them do the transfer, then the limit of one year would not apply.

Any firearms purchased before you were a FFL does not apply, only those transferred to your own personal collection and only for one year after that transfer. It does not make sense since the firearm has to be transferred through a FFL in CA, but the Federal law does not recognize that aspect.

Yes, after a year, you can PPT the firearm. It is unclear as to whether it can be transferred as a PPT since a PPT is a CA issue, not Federal, the main issue is that you have to log it in to your bound book.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I got the response back from the BATF, who spoke to the legal department. The law is that if a FFL transfers a firearm to their own personal collection, they have to bring it back into their own book, which means that they don't personally own it at that point and could not do a PPT, only a dealer sale. If it was brought to another FFL, it would be coming from the FFL, not the person.

I doubt that the CA DOJ would have an issue with the DROS being submitted as a PPT, but they could. That is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

Do a little more research on this Ken. First, how would you input a personal gun into your book as a PPT any differently from someone else and yourself? If you log it into your book so you can PPT it, it comes in from you. If you log it into your book to sell it as a transfer, it comes from you.

Second, the law is clear, the one year rule only applies if it is not sold on a 4473.

I know I hashed all of this out in a thread before, I just can't find it right now.

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That (1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, (2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by 478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition, (3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, and (4) The licensee enters the sale or other disposition of the firearm from the personal firearms collection into a bound record, under the format prescribed below, identifying the firearm transferred by recording the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge, and showing the date of the sale or other disposition, the name and address of the transferee, or the name and business address of the transferee if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a drivers license). The format required for the disposition record of personal firearms is as follows: Disposition Record of Personal Firearms ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Description of firearm Disposition ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name and address Manufacturer and/ Model Serial No. Type Caliber or Date (business Date of birth if or importer gauge address if nonlicensee licensee) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (b) Any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of a firearm from the licensee's personal firearms collection under this section shall be subject to the restrictions imposed by the Act and this part on the dispositions of firearms by persons other than licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and licensed dealers. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512 0387) [T.D. ATF270, 53 FR 10504, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF313, 56 FR 32509, July 17, 1991; T.D. ATF415, 63 FR 58280, Oct. 29, 1998]

Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/478-personal...#ixzz1DdCWkskQ

So you are not required submit a 4473 if you keep the gun for a year. Simply fill out a 4473 and that one year provision no longer applies.

[kemasa]

I am not sure of what additional research you want me to do.

I agree that you should be able to do the transfer as a PPT since the DROS is a state thing, but was told by the BATF agent that it can not be done and as to be done as a dealer transfer according to the legal department. This person is a nice person and has been quite helpful, so it is not a random person to me.

I agree that it seems that if the 4473 is complied with that meets with what you posted. It seems to be that based on what you posted, a FFL should be able to take the firearm to another FFL and have the transfer done as a PPT, but that is NOT what I was told and I am just the messenger.