FFL: Adding 2nd long arm to DROS?

[Boomer...]

I checked the forum WIKI but didn't see my question answered, so I'll ask it here...

During 10 day FFL hold period, can additional long arm(s) be added to the original DROS? I have my eye on a 2nd low cost rifle but I'd like to avoid another fee (10 day hold ends 6Jan11). I asked the FFL sales guy who said, can't be updated after transmission to DOJ. Another FFL said, no problem on long arms. Which answer is correct? TIA...

[rromeo]

It is legal, but it's still the FFL's choice.

[Boomer...]

Thank you for the clarification. So if its FFL's discretion, then it would seem not getting their portion of a 2nd DROS fee would be more than offset by making an additional firearm sale with same customer which otherwise might not happen.

[jtmkinsd]

Thank you for the clarification. So if its FFL's discretion, then it would seem not getting their portion of a 2nd DROSS fee would be more than offset by making an additional firearm sale with same customer which otherwise might not happen.

We don't get any portion of the DROS fee...it all goes to the State. The dealer fee for transfer is our income, or from the mark-up on the firearm (if dealer fee is waived for purchasing from inventory)...and we're going to get that on every firearm. Some are queezy about altering the DROS after submission...it's up to them as was stated...but I figure if I can save the customer money, they'll appreciate it and do business with me more.

[Boomer...]

We don't get any portion of the DROS fee...it all goes to the State.

Thanks for your reply and I do understand that. I'm thinking from a consumer perspective where cost for DROS goes to the State ($19?) with remainder of total fee going to the FFL to cover time and reasonable profit. My objective is to avoid a 2nd fee ($35) on purchase representing a significant percentage of rifle purchase cost, i.e., my feeble justification for breaking a 2011 N-Y resolution (already!) to shackle my wallet on these kind of purchases.

[rromeo]

If you buy from a dealer, it's $25. If it's a private transaction he can charge an extra $10, which is his.

[tenpercentfirearms]

It is debatable. For the mother of all cat fights, go see kemasa and I banter back and forth.

Well actually, I just checked all of the old threads and there is so much bull crap to wade through, I will give you kemasa and I's arguements.

First, kemasa believes the penal code prohibits adding long guns once the sale is over. He cites

PC 12077(d) Where the register is used, the following shall apply:
(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns.

Reading this it seems that you can only make one sale per DROS. Now a sale could be any number of long guns, but once that sale is over, then the number of guns are fixed, with exception of reducing the number (nothing backs this up in the PC, but the DOJ has said you can do this and what are you going to do if a guy won't finish paying for his gun and says he only wants one?).

My problem with this is no where does it define how long a single sale lasts. Kemasa has generally concluded that a single sale lasts no longer than a day and quite possibly once you walk out the door of the gun store. The problem is there is no PC definition to back up this definition. So where his definition is no longer than the end of the day, my definition of how long a single sale of multiple long guns lasts is when I sign the 4473 when you come to pick up your gun.

I get my definition from the actual 4473. It states

Additional firearms purchases by the same buyer may not be added to the form after the seller has signed and dated it. A buyer who wishes to purchase additional firearms after the seller has signed and dated the form must complete a new ATF Form 4473. The seller must conduct a new NICS check.

So in absence of a CA PC definition of how long a single sale of any number of long guns lasts, I use the federal definition on the 4473. Kemasa argues that is an incorrect procedure.

So in my shop, until I sign the 4473, your sale is not completed and I will add or subtract long guns at your request. Once I sign the 4473, the sale is over and any additional long guns will have to be re-DROSed.

So some dealers will do it and others will not. Please don't harass dealers that will not add long guns. They feel they are doing the correct thing and I don't blame them. Personally I think my reading of the penal code is strong enough, I will continue to do add and subtract long guns until the 4473 is signed at pick up.

And that there is the non-answer to your question.

[Boomer...]

...And that there is the non-answer to your question.

Wow, hardly a non-answer. You furnished fact-based data which should benefit those with similar questions to my own on subsequent forum searches.

For the record, initial long arm purchase was a consignment transaction. Although somewhat collectible by enthusiasts, not particularly expensive but subject to DROS plus use tax since transacted by an FFL. If I had decided on that 2nd (new) long arm same day, no question on bundling DROS and related fee. So now, I'll see what the shop says about completing signed Form 4473 and make my decision. Hey, I think kesema is in my zip code - maybe we'll meet someday...

[kemasa]

Wes put has a fair summary, but it is not legal to add firearms and if you ask the CA DOJ they will say the same thing. The Federal law for firearms transactions are quite different than for CA. For example, one 4473 can have handguns and long guns, but CA requires a DROS for the handgun and a separate DROS (as stupid as it is) for the long guns.

It is just not reasonable to claim that a single sale occurs over multiple days and that the purchase of a firearm on one day and the purchase of a firearm on another day is a "single" sale. Such things are ok under Federal law, just not CA State law.

[PolishMike]

Wes put has a fair summary, but it is not legal to add firearms and if you ask the CA DOJ they will say the same thing. The Federal law for firearms transactions are quite different than for CA. For example, one 4473 can have handguns and long guns, but CA requires a DROS for the handgun and a separate DROS (as stupid as it is) for the long guns.

It is just not reasonable to claim that a single sale occurs over multiple days and that the purchase of a firearm on one day and the purchase of a firearm on another day is a "single" sale. Such things are ok under Federal law, just not CA State law.

My DOJ guy said it was fine.

The sale extends until the item is picked up. In my opinion it is absolutely a single sale until the 4473/DROS (by writing pick up time) is closed out.

Mike

[kemasa]

See if he will put that in writing. I have been told otherwise by those that I trust at the DOJ. I don't trust the answers from all of the people who answer the phones.

[Boomer...]

My DOJ guy said it was fine.

The sale extends until the item is picked up. In my opinion it is absolutely a single sale until the 4473/DROS (by writing pick up time) is closed out.

Perhaps there is credence to that interpretation, since the FFL's sales receipt has a clause which buyer must sign which includes: "Cancellation is subject to 20% restocking charge -- all sales are final..." This implies to me that the sale isn't complete until after 10 day wait period and picked up by the buyer. I've seen (and signed) similar clauses at other LGS.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I don't print out a sales receipt until the day of pick up. Until then everything goes on a temporary sales order. That is how a sale lasts over several days. It really isn't that hard of a concept and it certainly coincides with the Federal definition in absence of a state definition of how long a single sale lasts.

I will just let it go at that and we can have a decent thread to link to for future reference that doesn't involved kemasa and I bantering on for days.

[kemasa]

As far as a DOJ person saying that it is fine, the actual question and answer really should be posted since it could be that it is not quite clear. For example, if you sold a long gun and right after submitting it the person wants another one, that could be considered acceptable, so the answer would be that it is ok.

[TripleT]

I work in a similar fashion as Wes. I create a sales order on the day of dros and an invoice on the day of pick-up. I consider the transaction to be complete the day of invoice or pick-up. As has been said before, "what happens when somebody is denied" ? The transaction is not completed, simple as that. Anytime during the ten day, a sales order can be canceled or modified for any number of reasons. Once they arrive to pickup, paperwork is completed, invoice is generated and transaction is complete. I honestly can't comprehend how a transaction could be complete when your not even sure if you can release the firearm at the end of the ten day. Let the DOJ do away with the 10 day or explain how a transaction can be complete without the customer receiving their merchandise and I'll view it differently.