"How To" Transaction Advice

[kemasa]

There are many who are doing illegal things and unless customers are willing to step up and do something about it, they will continue to do so.

Part of the problem is that many people do not know what the law is and often just believes the FFL.

[Perlo]

I'm not sure this is proper forum for this, but since the second part of LowSpark's question dealt with my issue, I'm going to piggyback onto his thread. If anyone feels there is a more appropriate forum for my question please point me in the right direction.

My question doesn't have anything to do with an PPT/FTF scenario since I've completed many of those transactions as both the buyer and the seller. I live in NorCal and I have a potential buyer located in SoCal who has asked if I will ship the LWRC REPR I currently have posted. While the person in question has an exemplary iTrader history, and I am very tempted to rely solely on his track record, my question hinges more on the protocol of shipping and any requisite steps to insure both parties are protected during the transaction process. Any feedback is greatly appreciated since the dollar sum involved here is $3,000. As such, I have a few questions that I hope someone can provide answers to based upon their own personal knowledge or past experience.

1. Has anyone used Paypal's invoice process to secure payment? Does this process provide any added protection to BOTH parties?
2. Does Gunbroker's provide any level of assurance of non-repudiation? Is feedback the only wedge for compliance?
3. Are there FFLs in SoCal (or NorCal for future reference) who specialize in handling both the PPT and transfer of funds between parties (virtual FTF)?
4. How reliable is iTrader feedback? Please don't assume that my question is an indictment of my potential buyer or the iTrader system - I'm just trying to better understand how the system works. Are there checks and balances to insure feedback data isn't padded or tracking of individual's identity should they decide to operate under a different handle? What happens if a person builds up a negative history - are they automatically banned from participating in the marketplace after so many failed transactions?

[Ron-Solo]

Riflegear and Bright Spot are both great places to do business with. Bright Spot will soon be raising their fees from $70 to $75 soon. Also they always close between Christmas and New Years.

[kemasa]

I have heard that PayPal will cancel accounts if they find that firearm transfers are involved, so I would not trust them in that respect, nor others as they can lock an account.

I do not think that gunbroker does anything other than feedback and perhaps deleting a person's account if they are a problem. As far as I know, there is nothing with respect to money.

A PPT is when both parties come to the FFL, so this is not a PPT. I have done transfers before where I held the money for buyer/seller until the transfer was complete. It is best if cash is involved since the FFL would not want to get involved in a bounced check.

Feedback is an indication, but since it could be padded, as you say. I doubt that it happens much though. It is possible to create another account to start over, which is why you also need to look at how long the person has been registered, not just the feedback.

Normally, the buyer sends funds and when the money clears, the firearm ships. This means that the buyer is the one who is at risk, not the seller. The buyer should send funds through USPS, so that if there is a problem, it might be possible to file mail fraud charges (only available through USPS).

If the buyer is asking for you to ship the firearm before funds, then I would be concerned. You could come down to do the transfer as a PPT, and then get cash payment. The buyer could check out the firearm before paying and you get the money. This also limits the transfer costs.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I'm not sure this is proper forum for this, but since the second part of LowSpark's question dealt with my issue, I'm going to piggyback onto his thread. If anyone feels there is a more appropriate forum for my question please point me in the right direction.

My question doesn't have anything to do with an PPT/FTF scenario since I've completed many of those transactions as both the buyer and the seller. I live in NorCal and I have a potential buyer located in SoCal who has asked if I will ship the LWRC REPR I currently have posted. While the person in question has an exemplary iTrader history, and I am very tempted to rely solely on his track record, my question hinges more on the protocol of shipping and any requisite steps to insure both parties are protected during the transaction process. Any feedback is greatly appreciated since the dollar sum involved here is $3,000. As such, I have a few questions that I hope someone can provide answers to based upon their own personal knowledge or past experience.

1. Has anyone used Paypal's invoice process to secure payment? Does this process provide any added protection to BOTH parties?
2. Does Gunbroker's provide any level of assurance of non-repudiation? Is feedback the only wedge for compliance?
3. Are there FFLs in SoCal (or NorCal for future reference) who specialize in handling both the PPT and transfer of funds between parties (virtual FTF)?
4. How reliable is iTrader feedback? Please don't assume that my question is an indictment of my potential buyer or the iTrader system - I'm just trying to better understand how the system works. Are there checks and balances to insure feedback data isn't padded or tracking of individual's identity should they decide to operate under a different handle? What happens if a person builds up a negative history - are they automatically banned from participating in the marketplace after so many failed transactions?

Having just seen a horrible private transfer across the state go bad in another thread, here is what I recommend.

DO NOT SHIP UNTIL FUNDS ARE SECURE! Do not use PayPal because if you get ripped off, as soon as you tell Pay Pal you sold a gun, you are screwed. You cannot sell guns through Pay Pal.

Gunbroker only works if you sell the gun on auction, which is going to be charged a fee and the guy can still rip you off.

Most dealers do not want to get involved in transfer of funds for a couple of reasons. First, it is a bother unless we make money on it. Second, it brings into question possibly having to collect sales tax. For example, if take the money in on my books and send it back out, what was the transaction and was tax due? How do I account for that money? Part of my questions are because I don't know.

I don't know the answers to your iTrader questions.

Here is what I would do. Make sure you get the funds first. If he has to take a cash advance out of his credit card and pay their fees, that is on him. Just make sure you have the funds. Stipulate to the buyer what happens in the case of a possible return. If he fails background, will you issue a refund? Will you charge a cancellation fee. If I were you I would simply state no refunds unless the item is not as described.

Talk to the receiving FFL about what might happen if you are going to have to have the firearm returned. Once you send it to the FFL for the purposes of selling it, he can not send it back to you, but must send it back to an FFL and you are going to have to re-DROS your firearm. How much is the FFL going to charge for this? Assume the guy on the other end isn't going to be paying the FFL anything, but know the FFL doesn't want to work for free.

Good luck.

[Perlo]

Thanks for the response guys!

I never even thought about Pay Pal's T&Cs and whether or not a firearm transaction would violate their terms of use. What a world we live in where word "firearm" is equivalent to the word "baby-killer." I'm not totally sure, but I would bet it's okay to invoice for abortion services, but it's not okay to transact firearms sales - go figure. I know sites like Craig's List even ban firearm accessory sales, so it can't be for the sake of limiting liability. Okay, okay, I'll get off my soapbox.

I find it interesting that a PPT can only be completed in person. I had another individual in So Cal lined up to purchase said REPR shortly before the Thanksgiving holiday. My plan at that time was to transfer the upper, ammo and UBR to his father who was coming north to spend time with family during the holiday. In return, I would receive my $3,000 and we would BOTH go to UPS to ship the lower to his son's FFL. I got so far as making contact with my buyer's FFL to secure a copy of his license before the deal fell apart after my buyer's wife was involved in a car accident and he had to pull out due to lack of funds. During the course of my interactions with his FFL, he indicated that I needed to include a copy of my driver's license in the LR package I was sending to him. What type of transaction was his FFL brokering?

I also find it interesting that I have to re-DROS a firearm that was never actually transferred to a new buyer should he fail a background check. Aren't I still the legal owner or does the FFL become the legal owner after the firearm is shipped? If the FFL becomes the legal guardian I would assume that I would either have to:

A. Go south to sign DROS (and pay any required fees)

-- or --

B. Pay local FFL fees for the transfer of my firearm back to myself which Would include shipping costs, DROS, etc

What if I got hit by a car after I shipped the firearm and did nothing to retrieve the firearm via the DROS process? Does the firearm remain in a state of perpetual limbo, or does the FFL become the legal owner after a certain amount of time has elapsed? Would my estate have any legal claim?

If I went south to complete the DROS, I assume that they could ship the firearm to me after the 10-day waiting period elasped, correct? I am the rightful owner at that point, and wouldn't see them shipping it to me as being anything different than LWRC shipping it back to me after completing some type of repair. Is this a correct assumption?

What if the deal fell apart due to buyer's non-payment before the FFL initiated any paperwork with DOJ, could the firearms be return to me without having to resubmit a DROS? If a DROS is required, I assume that I will have to endure the same 10-day waiting period before I can take possession of my own firearm - once again - go figure??

I thought shipping it would be a pretty straight forward process, but after reviewing your comments, it sounds like I need to write a contract.

I also didn't even think about tax implications - which would nix the idea of a virtual FTF even if I could complete a PPT remotely.

I also like the idea of sending funds through the USPS since it does provide some additional protection due to federal laws potentially being violated, even though when criminal intent is involved nothing is a slam dunk.

I guess the bottom line to my questions is: Receive funds THEN ship firearm.

Thanks again for the insightful responses!

[kemasa]

If you give the firearm to a FFL to do the transfer, not for repair, then the ownership has basically changed. Then add the firearm being shipped to another FFL. Some FFLs will just give it back to you claiming that it was just for repair, but that is not right.

If the firearm is shipped, then the firearm is transferred as a dealer sale and there is no limit to the fee that the FFL can charge.

If you went South to complete the PPT DROS, then it could not be shipped back to you after 10 days. It is not being repaired and therefore is not the same.

You should not start anything until you get the payment, so you should still have the firearm. If you give the firearm to a FFL, then the DROS should be submitted and the 10 day waiting period. I think that if you do the PPT DROS, then it could be returned to you without any waiting period.

The sales tax issue is only if the FFL gets involved in the price or finding the buyer. The other comment about holding the money is due to the FFL being concerned that it could look like a sale and that they would need to be taxed on it.

Yes, receive the money, then ship the firearm. Provide a lot of pictures so that the buyer can not claim that there was something that you hid from them. Otherwise, take a drive down and get the cash. The buyer should be happier and the fees would be limited to a total of $35.

[mtsul]

I'm not sure this is proper forum for this, but since the second part of LowSpark's question dealt with my issue, I'm going to piggyback onto his thread. If anyone feels there is a more appropriate forum for my question please point me in the right direction.

My question doesn't have anything to do with an PPT/FTF scenario since I've completed many of those transactions as both the buyer and the seller. I live in NorCal and I have a potential buyer located in SoCal who has asked if I will ship the LWRC REPR I currently have posted. While the person in question has an exemplary iTrader history, and I am very tempted to rely solely on his track record, my question hinges more on the protocol of shipping and any requisite steps to insure both parties are protected during the transaction process. Any feedback is greatly appreciated since the dollar sum involved here is $3,000. As such, I have a few questions that I hope someone can provide answers to based upon their own personal knowledge or past experience.

1. Has anyone used Paypal's invoice process to secure payment? Does this process provide any added protection to BOTH parties?
2. Does Gunbroker's provide any level of assurance of non-repudiation? Is feedback the only wedge for compliance?
3. Are there FFLs in SoCal (or NorCal for future reference) who specialize in handling both the PPT and transfer of funds between parties (virtual FTF)?
4. How reliable is iTrader feedback? Please don't assume that my question is an indictment of my potential buyer or the iTrader system - I'm just trying to better understand how the system works. Are there checks and balances to insure feedback data isn't padded or tracking of individual's identity should they decide to operate under a different handle? What happens if a person builds up a negative history - are they automatically banned from participating in the marketplace after so many failed transactions?

I just used pay pal for 2 payments of $1400 so $2800 all together, for 2 firearms I went off on how he sounded in his PMs and over the phone, and his Itrader feedback I sent the first payment a month ago and second just the day before yesterday and he sent me half of what i was buying in the middle of last month just to be nice!!!! so you have to pick your battles I thought this guy seemed trust worthy and he was id buy from him anytime!! he could have just taken both payments and not sent the guns ammo or red dot scope but he kept his word and sent them early so it depends on you and whomever your dealing with best of luck either way, And if they have good itrader feedback anything over 10 is what most people iv seen say is fine (I have sent money over paypal before to people with 5)

[Perlo]

It's nice to know that things worked out fine for you. I think the other guys were trying to point out that Pay Pal is not someone (or something) you want to rely upon to make things right if by chance you end up with your back against the wall.

I sent a message to my potential buyer and pointed him to this thread. He is amenable to either option expressed herein - PPT/FTF or sending the money first.

I can't express how deeply grateful I am to have such a group as the members of Calguns to fall back on when I am searching for the right solution.

Thanks for taking the time to provide your input, Mtsul.

Have a great day,

Perry

[mtsul]

It's nice to know that things worked out fine for you. I think the other guys were trying to point out that Pay Pal is not someone (or something) you want to rely upon to make things right if by chance you end up with your back against the wall.

I sent a message to my potential buyer and pointed him to this thread. He is amenable to either option expressed herein - PPT/FTF or sending the money first.

I can't express how deeply grateful I am to have such a group as the members of Calguns to fall back on when I am searching for the right solution.

Thanks for taking the time to provide your input, Mtsul.

Have a great day,

Perry

No prob, And I totally agree dont count on Paypal for anything besides charging fees and being antis