"How To" Transaction Advice

[LowSpark]

I'm trying to understand how a particular transaction works. I'm buying a non C&R rifle from a Calgunner in NoCal and I'm in SoCal. My local gunshop will accept the rifle from his FFL and do the transfer for $105 ($70 +$35). I understand he has to go to his FFL who will then ship the rifle to my FFL. I'm assuming his FFL will charge for the service but is it the same $105 I have to pay on my end? Also, does the seller's FFL play a role in the exchange of funds between us or am I paying the seller on faith and then relying on him to send the rifle. Appreciate an education on this. Thanks for your help.

[Cokebottle]

He does not need to ship through an FFL unless your FFL requires it.
The law only requires that you RECEIVE the gun through an FFL.

BTW: $105 is a bit steep, and if their fee is $70 then they are overcharging you by $10 because California DROS is only $25.

Find a different FFL. I would suggest Riflegear or OC Armory if you are in Orange County.

[LowSpark]

Thanks Cokebottle! I appreciate the help.

[jtmkinsd]

"$70 + $35"??? did I miss something here? Oh...must be one of "those" that likes to add a "dealer fee" to the DROS fee so they can confuse the customer...My advice? Find another dealer who doesn't try to "hide" their true fees...tell him to man up and say up front he charges $80 plus DROS fee of $25. Oh...by the way...if he doesn't have it clearly stated in the break-down of DROS fees that there is a $10 dealer fee added to the DROS, he's committing a misdemeanor. Then call DOJ

Can you tell this is a pet peeve of mine?

As to the other parts of your question, the sending FFL will charge a transfer fee and any shipping costs involved. Any money exchanged between parties is up to the parties. We don't want to get involved in the exchange of money so that's up to you guys. We just handle the firearms

[LowSpark]

I'm definitely finding another FFL on my end. Sounds like the seller doesn't have to send through an FFL if my FFL will accept the rifle from a private party. Is that correct and if so, is there a reason that a receiving FFL wouldn't want to receive from a private party? Also, if the rifle has to be sent through an FFL up north, what should I expect to pay (I have to pay on both ends to make this deal happen). Thanks again for you help - this stuff is pretty confusing for the average joe.

[jtmkinsd]

It is more common for FFLs to only accept shippments from other FFLs. It's a choice by the particular FFL whether or not he wants to accept shippments from individuals. Generally it is to cut down on the possibility of receiving stolen firearms. Generally the buyer pays the shipping costs whatever they may be. If the sender wants to pay to have an FFL ship, that's on him.

[LowSpark]

Thanks again! - I understand now.

[Cokebottle]

"$70 + $35"??? did I miss something here? Oh...must be one of "those" that likes to add a "dealer fee" to the DROS fee so they can confuse the customer...My advice? Find another dealer who doesn't try to "hide" their true fees...tell him to man up and say up front he charges $80 plus DROS fee of $25. Oh...by the way...if he doesn't have it clearly stated in the break-down of DROS fees that there is a $10 dealer fee added to the DROS, he's committing a misdemeanor. Then call DOJ

I'm not even sure a "dealer fee" is legal on an FFL transfer.
Should be:
FFL Transfer Fee
Sales tax (if applicable)
DROS

[golfrj]

If you live in IE, contact Bright Spot Pawn in Riverside, they used to accept from an individual and charged around $70.. Your seller can ship a rifle himself UPS or Fedex ground cheaply.. Call Bright Spot on Monday to check their pricing.. Good Luck, Jim

[jtmkinsd]

I'm not even sure a "dealer fee" is legal on an FFL transfer.
Should be:
FFL Transfer Fee
Sales tax (if applicable)
DROS

There is a provision where a "dealer fee" may be added to the DROS fee so long as it is plainly stated in the break down of the DROS fees. It can only be done on dealer transfers, as the cost for a PPT is explicitly outlined in the PC, no more than $10 for the dealer, $25 for the DROS. I don't know why they left the door open for dealers to do this...but it really irritates me...cuz it enables the deception of the customer...this way they can say they charge a smaller amount over the phone...and you wouldn't realize the higher cost until you actually got to the store.

From DOJ website FAQ:

17.What fees can I charge in addition to the DROS?
In addition to the State's $19.00 DROS fee, you must also charge a $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a State fee.

(PC sections 12071(b)(11), (12))

So, in the breakdown of the DROS fees, some will add a "dealer fee" to the $19,$1, and $5 state fees. Then they can say "we charge $70 for transfers, and $35 for DROS. I don't personally know of any dealers near me doing this, but have come across a small number of people who've run into this at some shops.

[kemasa]

You can not misrepresent the DROS fee, which means you can NOT say that the DROS is anything other than $25 ($19 + $5 +$1). This means you can NOT add to the DROS to come up with something else. You can say that a transfer costs a total of $N, which include the DROS.

This makes no sense:

I don't know why they left the door open for dealers to do this...but it really irritates me...cuz it enables the deception of the customer...this way they can say they charge a smaller amount over the phone...and you wouldn't realize the higher cost until you actually got to the store.

If the FFL say that they charge a smaller amount on the phone and then charge more when you get there, it is fraud.

This is an important aspect:

you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a State fee.

If it were to be added to the DROS, then it is NOT clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and it IS misrepresented as a State fee and it is NOT legal.

[LowSpark]

Sent RifleGear an e-mail about using them as my SoCal FFL and got an immediate response from Brian saying that they will accept the rifle from a private party (with ID) and that my FFL transfer fees will be $75 which includes the state DROS fee. Pretty impressed at the response time (since I sent the e-mail after hours) and the price. I'm going to use them for this transaction. These guys really seem to be on top of their business. I've ordered product from them a couple of times and in both cases, it arrived within 2 days. Thanks to all of you and RG for helping me out in this.

[jtmkinsd]

You can not misrepresent the DROS fee, which means you can NOT say that the DROS is anything other than $25 ($19 + $5 +$1). This means you can NOT add to the DROS to come up with something else. You can say that a transfer costs a total of $N, which include the DROS.

This makes no sense:



If the FFL say that they charge a smaller amount on the phone and then charge more when you get there, it is fraud.

I've found a large number of dealers when asked over the phone will not generally give the "out the door" price quote when asked over the phone what they charge for transfers. Most times they will simply quote you the transfer fee without adding the cost of the DROS.

This is an important aspect:



If it were to be added to the DROS, then it is NOT clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and it IS misrepresented as a State fee and it is NOT legal.

The problem is with the PC...it clearly states as long as any "dealer fee" is outlined and clearly marked as such in the breakdown of fees, it's not illegal. Right or wrong (I believe it to be completely wrong) it is what it is. I believe a while ago I had a conversation with Jack (ke6guj) where he actually knew of one such dealer. IIRC he didn't have any problem with the practice as long as the fees were clearly marked, which I understand...but I personally don't agree with it. I like the wording of PC12082 for PPT transfers...because it is clear, and precise and separates the transfer into 2 distinct and separate fees.

The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805.

[kemasa]

It is hard to give an out the door price due to sales tax. The DROS should be mentioned though.

The point is that you can NOT say that the DROS is $35. It is quite clear and I am not sure of what problem you actually have with it. You can say that you charge $75 to do a transfer, which include the DROS, but you can not say that to DROS a firearm it is $75.

[jtmkinsd]

It is hard to give an out the door price due to sales tax. The DROS should be mentioned though.

The point is that you can NOT say that the DROS is $35. It is quite clear and I am not sure of what problem you actually have with it. You can say that you charge $75 to do a transfer, which include the DROS, but you can not say that to DROS a firearm it is $75.

I agree...but nonetheless, there are those doing just that.