Gun Lock Receipt Quesiton

[AIMSMALL]

If you go to this page on CalDOJ's web site...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12087.php

...and scroll down to Section 12088.1(e) you can do a print screen from there. I actually did the same thing you are planning to do, but none of the FFLs have ever questioned the gun lock receipts that I provide, so I've never had to show them the print out of Section 12088.1(e).

Here's the part in the link that has my attention (bold)
12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device. (b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:
"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."

(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply: (1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply: (This is the one most gun shops seem to have a hard on for)
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firear

So here's my question, why can't I sign a safe affidavid for a handgun?
As for the child safety act, why can't I use a lock I already owned to satisfy this requirement and the safe affidavid to satisfy 12088.1?

[AIMSMALL]

Also want to mention that a local FFL told me today during a PPT for my newest addition that, "they stopped doing the safe affidavid a few years ago." (meaning DOJ stopped doing it). They said they are doing things the way CA DOJ's auditor tells them they must.

I believe this is FUD, what do you guys have to say about this?

[ke6guj]

Also want to mention that a local FFL told me today during a PPT for my newest addition that, "they stopped doing the safe affidavid a few years ago." (meaning DOJ stopped doing it). They said they are doing things the way CA DOJ's auditor tells them they must.

I believe this is FUD, what do you guys have to say about this?

CADOJ didnt stop doing the Safe Affidavit a few years ago. The Safe Affidavit exemption still complies with CA safety lock laws. However, "a few years ago" the feds passed their own handgun safety lock law, and the CA safe affidavit is not acceptable to the feds. So, the end result is that you can't use an affidavit when you purchase a handgun, but because of the federal auditors, not because ofCADOJ's auditors.

[jtmkinsd]

So here's my question, why can't I sign a safe affidavid for a handgun?
As for the child safety act, why can't I use a lock I already owned to satisfy this requirement and the safe affidavid to satisfy 12088.1?

and identified as appropriate for that firearm.http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm

[kemasa]

You do not need the receipt for the safe. Take a look at the form, there is a place that needs to be initialed if the receipt is not available.

The problem with already having the lock is the claim by the BATF that the FFL must provide the lock. So, if you were to give the lock to the FFL at the start of the paperwork and the FFL were to provide it to you when you pick it up, then it should be ok, but some FFLs might not want to do that. You can also do a lock exchange.

You can satisfy the CA requirement by having a safe and you do not need a receipt for the lock for the Feds. The lock would also needs to be a CA certified lock.

[jtmkinsd]

You do not need the receipt for the safe. Take a look at the form, there is a place that needs to be initialed if the receipt is not available.

The problem with already having the lock is the claim by the BATF that the FFL must provide the lock. So, if you were to give the lock to the FFL at the start of the paperwork and the FFL were to provide it to you when you pick it up, then it should be ok, but some FFLs might not want to do that. You can also do a lock exchange.

You can satisfy the CA requirement by having a safe and you do not need a receipt for the lock for the Feds. The lock would also needs to be a CA certified lock.

If he finds one willing to go along with that he should post it...hard to imagine...pretty common around the shops that the only way you take away a handgun where the lock didn't come with the gun is buying one and the FFL copying the receipt...or the FFL "giving" him one with the transaction...of course the cost of that is usually passed on through a higher transfer fee.

[AIMSMALL]

Ok guys, I'm feeling like maybe you didn't read the laws I posted above before answering, 12088.1 D1 and D2 state that you are exempt from 12088.1.A if you own
a gun safe and provide "other proof of purchase or ownership" to me this means you don't need a reciept and you don't need to bring the safe with you either and since they don't specify what types of "other proof of purchase or ownership" are acceptable that opens the door to an affidavid. That should satisfy the CA law.

As for the Federal law, it doesn't state that the lock must be "provided" by the FFL or that there must be a reciept so locks that I already own that are "for that handgun" should be fine.

I do appreciate your input guys and I don't intend to sound like a know it all, this is just the way it reads to me and I'm wondering if anyone might share my perspective or possibly have something concrete to show that I'm incorrect.

[ke6guj]

Ok guys, I'm feeling like maybe you didn't read the laws I posted above before answering, 12088.1 D1 and D2 state that you are exempt from 12088.1.A if you own
a gun safe and provide "other proof of purchase or ownership" to me this means you don't need a reciept and you don't need to bring the safe with you either and since they don't specify what types of "other proof of purchase or ownership" are acceptable that opens the door to an affidavid. That should satisfy the CA law.

As for the Federal law, it doesn't state that the lock must be "provided" by the FFL or that there must be a reciept so locks that I already own that are "for that handgun" should be fine.

I do appreciate your input guys and I don't intend to sound like a know it all, this is just the way it reads to me and I'm wondering if anyone might share my perspective or possibly have something concrete to show that I'm incorrect.

we are familiar with the laws that you posted above, what was not clear was what you were asking. Now, I see that you are trying to deal with each set of laws separately, by using the safe affidavit to comply with CA law, and then providing the FFL a lock without a receipt in order to comply with federal law. That idea has been talked about here on CG for a while now, and if you can get an FFL to go along with it, it could work. Be aware tht CA law may require tha the lock that you provide the FFL be on the CA safety lock roster in order for the FFL to provide it back to you. So, you have that to deal with as well.

[jtmkinsd]

It's not that I'm trying to be a stick in the mud. I think the laws, both Federal and State are ridiculous. But yeah, the trick is finding an FFL who buys into your interpretation of what those laws require. No FFL who doesn't already conduct his/her business in the manner you've suggested is going to risk his license, or a fine, or both for a dumb lock. So in the end, once again, a stupid set of laws just winds up costing the legal gun owners and dealers more money and headaches.

and just to clarify I was being facetious about loading the gun safe in the car to pick up a handgun

[cmichini]

Follow up:

So for all the hand-wringing, worrying, planning, etc., when I went to do the pick up the FFL looked at the safe affidavit and just kept on rolling with the transfer/pick up. No mention made whatsoever of a lock/receipt for the HG pick up.

However, had they asked for it, I think my approach was both reasonable, compliant, and supportable.

I had:
A printed receipt (from an MS Excel spreadsheet - it's the Bill of Sale document I use when I sell any item that I think needs a receipt) for a lock with the model number on it, dated within 30 days.
A printout from CA DOJ's website for approved gun safety devices for THAT model, which indicated it was acceptable for rifles, shotguns, etc. including the double action revolvers (my pick up).
The lock itself with the model number on it.

Note: This was the lock came with a Mossberg shotgun, so if you have to produce a CA DOJ compliant lock at a HG pick up, check the locks that came with any new guns you've purchased, or your close friends have purchased.

You may be able to produce adequate documentation to meet the new Fed law, and not have to buy more locks that are probably redundant like mine since everyone lives in the vault.

Cheers and thanks to all for the input and feedback. I see there were a few additional discussions in the thread and am glad that my practical question spurred some serious discourse on the laws and how to ensure we comply with them (because ridiculous as they are if we don't comply we're not doing ourselves or our cause much good).

[kemasa]

I talked to the BATF attorney and he claimed that the law states that the FFL must provide the lock OR the safe. I do not read it that way, but it does not matter since I do not enforce the law.

[Cochise82]

Regardless of what the laws are, you're kind of tied to whatever the guy with the FFL is comfortable doing. One of the local shops here sells $5 locks and knows there is other methods of getting around buying one, but the guy there just says "spend $5 for your $400 gun and no one has to worry about the law." The then follow up by giving me good ideas of what to do with all your "extra" gun locks, such as locking his trailer hitch and his kid's bike.