Question about proof of residency.

[TripleT]

This is a simple rental agreement that could be executed between parents and child.

Only problem with a rental agreement, where one didn't exist before, is it may get the parents to thinking that if Junior can afford a firearm maybe we should be charging him rent (or more rent)...

[JagerTroop]

LOL. Man it is funny what people come up with (to dirtyJ's credit, someone probably told him this so it probably wasn't his idea). This is totally false. You can use any documents across any area. All that matters is you satisfy the requirements. "Used"! LOL.

For the feds, if your DL doesn't match your 4473, you need a government issued document. Your registration is a government issued document.

For the state, you need a secondary form of residency if you buy a handgun. Your registration qualifies.

You are good to go.

Ok. I'm in this same boat... PO box on my DL. Just to clarify:

Only 1(one) POR is required? Vehicle reg.(or utility bill, etc.) covers both; the address correction AND POR?

[halifax]

Ok. I'm in this same boat... PO box on my DL. Just to clarify:

Only 1(one) POR is required? Vehicle reg.(or utility bill, etc.) covers both; the address correction AND POR?

Re-read the bolded part again...

LOL. Man it is funny what people come up with (to dirtyJ's credit, someone probably told him this so it probably wasn't his idea). This is totally false. You can use any documents across any area. All that matters is you satisfy the requirements. "Used"! LOL.

For the feds, if your DL doesn't match your 4473, you need a government issued document. Your registration is a government issued document.

For the state, you need a secondary form of residency if you buy a handgun. Your registration qualifies.

You are good to go.

Is your utility bill issued by your city? If not, it probably isn't "government" issued and won't work for the 4473.

Yes, one document can satisfy both ATF and DOJ if it is governmnet issued.

[JagerTroop]

Re-read the bolded part again...




Is your utility bill issued by your city? If not, it probably isn't "government" issued and won't work for the 4473.

Yes, one document can satisfy both ATF and DOJ if it is governmnet issued.

Yes, my utility bill is issued by the city. In the past, some dealers have made me show 2 POR because my DL doesn't have my physical address. I've used my (city issued) utility bill, and one (or both) of my vehicle registration cards (2 cars in my name).

Looks like I'll be throwing this in their face, the next time I buy

[dirtyJ]

Wes was right, that was something I was told by people who are right 99% of the time when it comes to FFL stuff , I may not be the FFL but I do damn near all the work of one. Good to know that I can stop asking for a 3rd POR from people. Now if we could only get rid of that stupid *** printing bug from the DRoS system I'd be happy.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Interesting reading the CalDOJ residency requirements. Correct me if I am wrong here, but a current fishing license seems to qualify under "other forms" does it not? So the CADL could for the federal requirement and a current fishing license would the CAL requirement no?

1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

Also, would a previous copy of a DROS application that was accepted qualify? Maybe not since it has no expiration date or period of validity.

[ke6guj]

Interesting reading the CalDOJ residency requirements. Correct me if I am wrong here, but a current fishing license seems to qualify under "other forms" does it not?

nope, a fishing license is not issued by the government. It is issued by a clerk at the local bait shop. Same goes for hunting licenses.

fishing and hunting licensed are specifically excluded in teh CADOJ fAQ that covers POR.

What documentation is acceptable to demonstrate proof of residency for handgun purchasers?

• Utility bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual's name and either of the following:
  1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
     or
  2. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
  "Utility bill" means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired telephone connection or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection) or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.
• Residential lease that bears the individual's name and either of the following:
  1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) formor
  2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification card, or change of address attachment thereto.
  
  "Residential lease" means either of the following:
  1. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant)agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of timeor
  2. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.
• Property deed the bears the individual's name and either of the following:
  1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) formor
  2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
  
  "Property deed" means either or the following:
  1. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trustor
  2. A valid Certificate of title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.
• Current, government-issued license, permit, or registration, other than a CA Driver License or CA Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
  1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) formor
  2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
  
  Examples of acceptable proof of residency:
  1. Current DMV registrations.
  2. Electricity, gas, cable bill with purchaser's name onit from within the last 3 months.
  3. Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.
  
  
  Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:
  1. Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
  2. Cellular phone bill.

Also, would a previous copy of a DROS application that was accepted qualify? Maybe not since it has no expiration date or period of validity.

nope, not acceptable either. As you mentioned, no expiration date, and not issued by the government either.

[advocatusdiaboli]

fishing and hunting licensed are specifically excluded in teh CADOJ fAQ that covers POR.

what I love about this stuff, it that the LAW doesn't state this. But a FAQ, which isn't the law itself does. In other words, government by interpretation of the law by a bureaucratic FAQ and not the letter of the law. Or am I misunderstanding the status of the FAQ as law?

[ke6guj]

right, the LAW doesn't specifically exclude fishing licenses, and neither do the supporting regulations. But the way that fishing/hunting licenses are issues means that they don't meet the requirements of the law (and the supporting regulations). Therefore they are not acceptable. So, they mention that in the FAQ that they are not acceptable, and why. Its not that since it says that in the FAQ that the FAQ makes it law. The FAQ helps to explain the law, it doesn't write it.

[advocatusdiaboli]

But the way that fishing/hunting licenses are issues means that they don't meet the requirements of the law (and the supporting regulations).

DOn't reply to the following if you find my nitpicking bothersome and I understand the FAQ, but I think it is an incorrect interpretation of the law.

It's a nuance to be sure but I think they need to re-word the law or let fishing and hunting licenses pass muster. In my view, technically, the fishing license is issued by the state DFG through an agent (which the law specifically does not invalidate as proof--agency is never mentioned). The retail clerk aka "Agent" does not give me permission to fish--he issues me a license from the state DFG allowing me to legally fish. It is called, as such, a "State Fishing License" i.e. issued by the state.

As evidence I submit the following:
1. at http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/ they call searching for place to buy "License Agent Search"
2. I can buy then directly from the DFG on line--no middleman, no agent--issued directly by DFG.
3. They tell you who sells licenses: "Fees for licenses that are available from license agents include 5% license agent handling fee."

[ke6guj]

you would need to argue that position to CADOJ.

I would argue this point for them, how does having Billy Bob at the fishing counter sell me a license prove my residency? What does he use to confirm my address? My CA ID/DL? Well, since the ID/DL isn't acceptable for POR, how can anything that uses that establish residency, fruit of the poisonous tree?

there are some FFLs that would not accept certain forms of POR from a customer, but would send them over to the fishing dept and have them buy a fishing license. They would come back to the gun counter and then they would sell them a handgun. How does spending ~$40 in a different part of the store establish residency?


To take your arguement once step further, it now appears that CA F&G is doing online fishing license sales. http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/ols/intro.html In that case, it would be a CA gov agency that is directly issuing the license, so those should be valid, even though that those issued by Billy Bob would not be. I heard someone mention a lifetime license is issued directly by F&G, but since they don't expire, they don't qualify either.

[advocatusdiaboli]

To take your arguement once step further, it now appears that CA F&G is doing online fishing license sales. http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/ols/intro.html In that case, it would be a CA gov agency that is directly issuing the license, so those should be valid.

It would seem so. I mention on-line sales above but maybe I buried it and you missed (#2). But as you mention first, if CalDOJ says no then I don't think any FFL holder doing my DROS is going to go against their guidelines and suffer consequences in an audit if it's noticed.

I just thought it funny how in trying to craft laws carefully they tripped themselves up because they didn't fully define government licenses or registration. I wondered if voter registration fill the requirement but it doesn't expire.

My wife and I swapped vehicle a few years back--her's has only my name on the registration and mine her's only. So I used my trailer registration + CDL. Good thing I had that in the SUV ;-)

[kemasa]

While I don't know that I would accept it, but you can get a campfire permit from the NFS and the permits are free. The permit expires at the end of the year each year. The issue I have with it is that it is not mailed and they just look at your drivers license, so it does not add anything. It does appear to meet all the requirements though.

[ke6guj]

I think we need to find the most obsure permits/licenses to use for POR. My Amature Radio License should work, it has my address, is issued by the federal government, and has a 10-year period of validity.

[kemasa]

A HAM license is a good thing since it will be canceled if the person moves. The fact that it is 10 years and also a good thing.