$100 Storage Fee in Addition to PPT Fee?

[nintense]

It wasn't bad money 30+ years ago, minimum wage was under $4/hr. The problem is they did not plan in any sort of raises over the years.

$10 30 years ago is like $30 today. I?m happy to pay $30 for good service. I don?t understand how the big box stores running so inefficient. Every transaction is two hours, even buying ammo. Even if they have 50% off sale it?s not worth my time, and they?re certainly loosing money.


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[Dvrjon]

The statute appears clear on its face that the FFL cannot charge for storage during the 10-day waiting period. But if anyone can point us to the documentation confirming this common sense interpretation - such as the memo from Bill Lockyer to FFLs, referenced by The Gleam, the docs could be potentially helpful in dealing with stubborn FFLs.

Having been through the experience of getting hosed, I don't think I'll face that situation again. But still, the hard evidence is good to have. I would also be able to rely on it in exposing the FFL as having engaged in illegal conduct in my reviews. At this point, my criticism has been limited to the owner's unethical conduct.

Lockyer InfoBull, re: Private Party transactions

[Nardo1895]

Lockyer InfoBull, re: Private Party transactions

Interesting that there is no limit on the storage fee after the 10 days as long as its posted and clear what it covers. Also interesting that a FFL can't limit when they will do a PPT.

It probably takes 30 minutes for me to enter a PPT and another 10 to deliver the gun if I only count my actual input time. But most customers like to talk and with a PPT there are two of them. I can't multitask so that typically drives my time to over an hour total. Not complaining. I normally enjoy the gun banter but I'm also not paying someone to process the transfer. Its just my time. I don't charge a storage fee and think that's bad for business. Plus most people want their gun ASAP. I have to think that the market will take care of someone charging $100 for storage.

[boomer8800]

if people cant earn enough to live in calif then there are 49 other states to move too. So tired of people complaining how expensive and low paying it is to live here. Move the F*ck out then!

[whatmeworry]

Some FFL's just don't get it. They have contracted with State/Feds for an FFL license. This contract allows the FFL to sell firearms to the public (amongst other things) and as part of the bargaining they have to pay a license fee and they have to do PPT's at a set price.

They cannot unilaterally decide not to adhere to certain parts of the contract that they do not like, or feel is unfair.

This does not just apply to FFL's but to ANY contract that parties willingly enter into.

[Dave7878]

If you think your FFL is over charging you to do a PPT, why don't you call DOJ at (916)210-2300.
FFL can't not charge more the $10. on top of the $37.19 DROS "FEE". However, FFL can charge a "SERVICE CHARGE" as along as FFL post it. There is no limit set for the service charge.
FFL can not say no to PPT. It is a service FFL has to provide. However, it can be by appointment only.

Running a FFL is hard enough in CA. You think this FFL in not for you. Just go to the next one. Call DOJ and find out before crying here. If this is illegal, don't you think DOJ will fine the FFL for that? CA just have to kill the Industry. They don't have to ban guns.

[Nate]

If you think your FFL is over charging you to do a PPT, why don't you call DOJ at (916)210-2300.
FFL can't not charge more the $10. on top of the $37.19 DROS "FEE". However, FFL can charge a "SERVICE CHARGE" as along as FFL post it. There is no limit set for the service charge.
FFL can not say no to PPT. It is a service FFL has to provide. However, it can be by appointment only.

Running a FFL is hard enough in CA. You think this FFL in not for you. Just go to the next one. Call DOJ and find out before crying here. If this is illegal, don't you think DOJ will fine the FFL for that? CA just have to kill the Industry. They don't have to ban guns.

OP, call the DOJ and seewhat happens!!

Maybe we should start a thread that list crappy FFL?s. I nominate Arcadia Firearms to be first on the list! I?m pretty sure we can add a whole bunch to the list. We should also create a list of excellent FFL?s so we can give our business them!

[CharlieBrown911]

I only had 2 questions in my opening post: (1) Is it legal for the FFL to require payment of the extra $100 for storage? and (2) Is it true that many other FFLs charge a storage fee?

Both of those questions were answered by helpful posts.

I agree that a list of crappy FFLs would be helpful. Since I have completed all PPT transactions for the foreseeable future (really the only reason I have been on this site), I'll leave assembly of that list to another calgunner.

I suspect the few apologists who condone unethical and illegal conduct are also likely unprincipled swindlers. I recommend that the list of garbage FFLs be accompanied by a list of sympathizers and supporters of those crooks, the proponents who themselves should be outed.

The list should be rather small. Of the many transactions I've taken part in, all except for the one at Arcadia have been professional and untarnished by deceit or illegal conduct.

I have no interest in seeing FFLs prosecuted, licenses revoked, or stores closed. But it is in the interest of any PPT participants to be aware of which FFLs to avoid. To the extent that we can provide transparency by creating such a list, it would be helpful to others to avoid an unpleasant experience.

Cheers! This is my final post in this thread.

[Dvrjon]

If you think your FFL is over charging you to do a PPT, why don't you call DOJ at (916)210-2300.
FFL can't not charge more the $10. on top of the $37.19 DROS "FEE". However, FFL can charge a "SERVICE CHARGE" as along as FFL post it. There is no limit set for the service charge.

It must be clearly posted and cannot be presented as a State fee.

FFL can not say no to PPT. It is a service FFL has to provide. However, it can be by appointment only.

The former Attorney General disagrees:

Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.

Running a FFL is hard enough in CA. You think this FFL in not for you. Just go to the next one. Call DOJ and find out before crying here. If this is illegal, don't you think DOJ will fine the FFL for that? CA just have to kill the Industry. They don't have to ban guns.

Let’s remember, FFLs signed off on this program as a means of bringing customers into their shops. And they happily rode that wave until inflation and costs increased.

Would it not make more sense for the industry to submit a proposal to the Legislature to increase fees under the law? The Cost-of-Living index has ratcheted up sharply to place the cost of a PPT over $30, or 1 hr at $15/hr labor. Yet the industry has made no attempt to do this over 20 years.

Claiming that FFLs need to scalp customers to cover their costs isn?t the best way to proceed. Next thing, the cash registers will ask for a tip.

Here is some background from a couple of years ago.

Oh, Welcome to CalGuns; Nice first post after 3.5 years.

[The Gleam]

Imagine any other hand-held product where consumers are FORCED to use a dealer for private party transactions, AND cough up $10 to the dealer for the joy of their patronage.

Should be free.

Any other business would GLADLY take up the $10 profit and forcing of TWO tangible customers into their store to boot, just to get the foot traffic opportunity to wrangle TWO viable, legitimate, potential warm bodies in their store for a sale opportunity.

If as a dealer, you can't garner a sale out of one guy that now has a hot pocket full of new spending cash, and/or the other guy that now has a new-to-him gun for which he is highly likely going to want to accessorize upon or needs ammo for it - AND the latter needs to return to your store some 10 days later for a REPEAT opportunity to sell him stuff - you suck as a salesman.

Epic fail by any dealer deriding the forced PPT concern as a money losing proposal: it's cheaper than advertising and the dealer is actually making money on the trick - it can't even be called a loss leader!

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[taperxz]

Some FFL's just don't get it. They have contracted with State/Feds for an FFL license. This contract allows the FFL to sell firearms to the public (amongst other things) and as part of the bargaining they have to pay a license fee and they have to do PPT's at a set price.

They cannot unilaterally decide not to adhere to certain parts of the contract that they do not like, or feel is unfair.

This does not just apply to FFL's but to ANY contract that parties willingly enter into.

Please show me where an FFL signed a contract for anything. There is no contract

Do you as a buyer have a contract with DOJ to own your guns?

[taperxz]

Imagine any other hand-held product where consumers are FORCED to use a dealer for private party transactions, AND cough up $10 to the dealer for the joy of their patronage.

Should be free.

Any other business would GLADLY take up the $10 profit and forcing of TWO tangible customers into their store to boot, just to get the foot traffic opportunity to wrangle TWO viable, legitimate, potential warm bodies in their store for a sale opportunity.

If as a dealer, you can't garner a sale out of one guy that now has a hot pocket full of new spending cash, and/or the other guy that now has a new-to-him gun for which he is highly likely going to want to accessorize upon or needs ammo for it - AND the latter needs to return to your store some 10 days later for a REPEAT opportunity to sell him stuff - you suck as a salesman.

Epic fail by any dealer deriding the forced PPT concern as a money losing proposal: it's cheaper than advertising and the dealer is actually making money on the trick - it can't even be called a loss leader!

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You have no clue. You can convince yourself that you?re right but that?s because it benefits you. PPT?s do not pan out on the books. I would rather have an employee putting out product just received than do a PPT.

Why don?t you tell us what you do and I too can create a situation that makes you lose money.

How do you possibly see $10 as a profit BTW??

[Russian Bot]

Let?s get something straight right now!

DOJ isn?t going to do squat to FFLs and you know why? If an FFL took the state to court, the state would lose for mandating work on behalf of the state and forcing a business to lose money on a state mandated program.

You guys want better PPT service? Put your money where your mouth is. For those that buy extra stuff? Thank you! For those who use us as a half way point and don?t buy a box of ammo, cleaning brush or target, we do take notes next time you want service

What store are you representing with your we, just asking so I make sure to never break the threshold.
FFLs at the time supported the mandatory BGC for PPT in California because they thought it would force customers into their stores. I typically buy stuff when I'm doing a PPT, and also go to the same FFL most times when I want to buy a gun from inventory. That said it's not a requirement for service, but keep taking those notes.

[Nate]

You have no clue. You can convince yourself that you?re right but that?s because it benefits you. PPT?s do not pan out on the books. I would rather have an employee putting out product just received than do a PPT.

Why don?t you tell us what you do and I too can create a situation that makes you lose money.

How do you possibly see $10 as a profit BTW??

Typical small business mentality! Lets make sure the shelves are stocked and ignore potential customers that walk in the door.

Grant it PPT's don't make FFL's money, but neither do customers that don't buy. You have two potential customers that just walked in the store and you ignore them so your employee can stock shelves. Good call!!!

[taperxz]

Typical small business mentality! Lets make sure the shelves are stocked and ignore potential customers that walk in the door.

Grant it PPT's don't make FFL's money, but neither do customers that don't buy. You have two potential customers that just walked in the store and you ignore them so your employee can stock shelves. Good call!!!

That?s correct. It does end up being more profitable to stock the shelves that to do a PPT. The numbers absolutely prove this.

I have multiple stores and crunch the numbers. I?m right regardless of how you want to spend my money.

We do PPTs all the time for the proper fee and no storage charges. I don?t have to pretend it?s profitable to do also. It?s a loss, I don?t consider it a lost leader, they are a waste of time and money 85% of the time.