Finding a CA FFL capable of transferring DDs

[Wortwood]

Hi,

I have something of an unusual issue. My father lives in California, I live in Texas. He doesn't feel like keeping his collection anymore and wants to give it to me. Most of the items are not a problem, but he does have some shotguns that he purchased back in the 80s that were retroactively declared Destructive Devices by the ATF (the whole no sporting purpose thing), making them NFA items.

My understanding of the process is that he would need to transfer them to a CA FFL, who would send it to a TX FFL who would then transfer it to me and each of us would need to fill out Form 4s.

The problem is, because these shotguns are destructive devices, the FFL in question must be an FFL 09/10/11. I downloaded the list of FFLs in California and contacted every 9/10/11 on the list to no avail. Most of the holders are not retail stores, and the few that are are military/le only.

Does anyone know how I can accomplish this transfer given that no FFL in California capable of handling a destructive device is doing transfers for private citizens?

I did read that SOT Class IIs may be able to perform such transfers, but nothing from what I would call a concrete source. Any help figuring this out would be greatly appreciated.

[Quiet]

Hi,

I have something of an unusual issue. My father lives in California, I live in Texas. He doesn't feel like keeping his collection anymore and wants to give it to me. Most of the items are not a problem, but he does have some shotguns that he purchased back in the 80s that were retroactively declared Destructive Devices by the ATF (the whole no sporting purpose thing), making them NFA items.

My understanding of the process is that he would need to transfer them to a CA FFL, who would send it to a TX FFL who would then transfer it to me and each of us would need to fill out Form 4s.

The problem is, because these shotguns are destructive devices, the FFL in question must be an FFL 09/10/11. I downloaded the list of FFLs in California and contacted every 9/10/11 on the list to no avail. Most of the holders are not retail stores, and the few that are are military/le only.

Does anyone know how I can accomplish this transfer given that no FFL in California capable of handling a destructive device is doing transfers for private citizens?

I did read that SOT Class IIs may be able to perform such transfers, but nothing from what I would call a concrete source. Any help figuring this out would be greatly appreciated.

#1. BATFE will not approve the transfer (From 4) of a Title 2 DD to a CA resident, unless that CA resident has a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD.

Until you obtain a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD, no one in CA will treat you seriously.

CA DOJ BOF will not issue a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD, unless you have a valid good cause for issuance.

To have for personal use is not a valid good cause for issuance.
Examples of valid good cause for issuance...
... to import/make/transfer to a Gov/Mil/LE agency
... to import/make/use for the entertainment industry
... to import/make/transfer/use pursuant to a Gov/Mil/LE contract.

After you obtain a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD, you can then tackle issue #2.

#2. All of those shotguns that were declared to be Title 2 DD by the BATFE are also considered assault weapons under CA laws.

In order to be a CA legal Title 2 DD, those firearms need to be modified to comply with CA assault weapons laws prior to being imported into CA.
^If the shotgun has a revolving cylinder (e.g. Striker 12), then there is no method to make it into a CA legal non-assault weapon and it can only be legally transferred to a person with a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for an AW. So, if the shotgun with the revolving cylinder is also considered a Title 2 DD, then you will need both a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD and a Dangerous Weapons Permit for an AW.

[Wortwood]

#1. BATFE will not approve the transfer (From 4) of a Title 2 DD to a CA resident, unless that CA resident has a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD.

Until you obtain a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD, no one in CA will treat you seriously.

CA DOJ BOF will not issue a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD, unless you have a valid good cause for issuance.

To have for personal use is not a valid good cause for issuance.
Examples of valid good cause for issuance...
... to import/make/transfer to a Gov/Mil/LE agency
... to import/make/use for the entertainment industry
... to import/make/transfer/use pursuant to a Gov/Mil/LE contract.

After you obtain a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD, you can then tackle issue #2.

#2. All of those shotguns that were declared to be Title 2 DD by the BATFE are also considered assault weapons under CA laws.

In order to be a CA legal Title 2 DD, those firearms need to be modified to comply with CA assault weapons laws prior to being imported into CA.
^If the shotgun has a revolving cylinder (e.g. Striker 12), then there is no method to make it into a CA legal non-assault weapon and it can only be legally transferred to a person with a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for an AW. So, if the shotgun with the revolving cylinder is also considered a Title 2 DD, then you will need both a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a DD and a Dangerous Weapons Permit for an AW.

Hi, thank you so much for answering. In case it wasn't clear from my original post, I am trying to transfer the weapon *out* of California. Not *in*. The weapons are currently in California, and I am trying to get them transferred to me in Texas. I have an FFL on my end in Texas who is willing to handle the transfer, I am just stuck trying to find someone to handle the California end.

[hermosabeach]

Is this what he owns in CA?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1994-2-striker-12-shotgun-defined-nfa-weapon/download

If yes, there are a few shops in CA that deal with the AOW market and might be aware what can be done with the Shotgun.

I am not aware of what people living in CA needed to do when the BATFE rules these were NFA items and you have to get the $200 Tax stamp.

https://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

[Wortwood]

Is this what he owns in CA?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1994-2-striker-12-shotgun-defined-nfa-weapon/download

If yes, there are a few shops in CA that deal with the AOW market and might be aware what can be done with the Shotgun.

I am not aware of what people living in CA needed to do when the BATFE rules these were NFA items and you have to get the $200 Tax stamp.

https://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

Yes one of the weapons is a Streetsweeper like in the decision you linked to. The guns are definitely NFA items, and they are registered with the ATF. Do you know any specific shop that I could call that deals with this kind of item? It couldn't hurt to at least ask and see if they have more information.

[Quiet]

Hi, thank you so much for answering. In case it wasn't clear from my original post, I am trying to transfer the weapon *out* of California. Not *in*. The weapons are currently in California, and I am trying to get them transferred to me in Texas. I have an FFL on my end in Texas who is willing to handle the transfer, I am just stuck trying to find someone to handle the California end.

Sorry for my confusion with the direction of the firearms.

See below for further complications...

Yes one of the weapons is a Streetsweeper like in the decision you linked to. The guns are definitely NFA items, and they are registered with the ATF. Do you know any specific shop that I could call that deals with this kind of item? It couldn't hurt to at least ask and see if they have more information.

That is a make/model banned assault weapon in CA. [PC 30510(c)(3)]

Unless it was registered as an assault weapon before 01-01-1991, it is illegal to possess in CA.
^Does not matter if it is a BATFE approved Title 2 DD.

If it is not a registered assault weapon, then it is illegal to possess and transport in CA. [PC 30600(a) and 30605(a)]
A CA FFL dealer can not legally possess, transfer, or ship it.
The only legal recourse is to make a deal to avoid criminal charges by having it surrendered to law enforcement for destruction.

If it is a registered assault weapon, then only a CA FFL dealer with an assault weapons permit can legally possess, transfer, or ship it.

Bottom line:
If the firearms are BATFE approved Title 2 DD and are CA registered assault weapons, then a CA FFL/SOT dealer with an assault weapons permit is needed to legally transfer/ship the firearms.
If the firearms are BATFE approved Title 2 DD and are CA unregistered assault weapons, then they are illegal weapons in CA that are subject to confiscation and destruction if discovered by CA LEOs.

[Wortwood]

Sorry for my confusion with the direction of the firearms.

See below for further complications...



That is a make/model banned assault weapon in CA. [PC 30510(c)(3)]

Unless it was registered as an assault weapon before 01-01-1991, it is illegal to possess in CA.
^Does not matter if it is a BATFE approved Title 2 DD.

If it is not a registered assault weapon, then it is illegal to possess and transport in CA. [PC 30600(a) and 30605(a)]
A CA FFL dealer can not legally possess, transfer, or ship it.
The only legal recourse is to make a deal to avoid criminal charges by having it surrendered to law enforcement for destruction.

If it is a registered assault weapon, then only a CA FFL dealer with an assault weapons permit can legally possess, transfer, or ship it.

Bottom line:
If the firearms are BATFE approved Title 2 DD and are CA registered assault weapons, then a CA FFL/SOT dealer with an assault weapons permit is needed to legally transfer/ship the firearms.
If the firearms are BATFE approved Title 2 DD and are CA unregistered assault weapons, then they are illegal weapons in CA that are subject to confiscation and destruction if discovered by CA LEOs.

The weapons were purchased before the ban and were registered as assault weapons with the state of california in addition to being reigstered as NFA items with the ATF, so no worries there.

Does any of this affect the requirement for an FFL to be a dealer/importer/manufacturer of destructive devices to handle the transfer? That's my primary sticking point, because as I said I don't believe there exists in the state of california an FFL with that license who will do business with a private party.

[George W]

I would suggest a road trip to pick them up yourself and bring them back to Texas or better yet have your Dad bring them to you in person.
If he can legally own it he can legally transport it
I wasn't aware that a Ca. resident could own a DD streetsweeper.
I used to have one myself. I purchased it new back before 91.
When the laws changed and they deemed them DD's I had to have it removed from the state before the law went into effect.
At that time I couldn't find away to still keep it in Calif.
I was never able to find away to own a DD.
Not sure how your pops did it but good for him.
Hope you can find away to get it to Texas.

It's really a piece of **** of a shotgun in my opinion the trigger pull is horrendous. It did have a certain cool factor to it until you shot it.

What part of Calif. does your dad live?

[Wortwood]

I would suggest a road trip to pick them up yourself and bring them back to Texas or better yet have your Dad bring them to you in person.
If he can legally own it he can legally transport it
I wasn't aware that a Ca. resident could own a DD streetsweeper.
I used to have one myself. I purchased it new back before 91.
When the laws changed and they deemed them DD's I had to have it removed from the state before the law went into effect.
At that time I couldn't find away to still keep it in Calif.
I was never able to find away to own a DD.
Not sure how your pops did it but good for him.
Hope you can find away to get it to Texas.

It's really a piece of **** of a shotgun in my opinion the trigger pull is horrendous. It did have a certain cool factor to it until you shot it.

What part of Calif. does your dad live?

I don't believe this works. As I said before, they are NFA items. You have to file a form with the ATF to leave the state with a non-suppressor NFA item. I believe insofar as transferring them to me, the law considers the state of residency of the parties involved.

Technically my father *could* move to texas with the gun and then the transfer would be a simple form 4, but I'm hoping to figure out something less disruptive than that, since he would have to establish legal residency in Texas.

I cannot legally take posession of any of these items until a Form 4 has been approved by the ATF granting me ownership of them.

[Milsurp1]

[Quiet]

I would suggest a road trip to pick them up yourself and bring them back to Texas or better yet have your Dad bring them to you in person.
If he can legally own it he can legally transport it

Federal laws/regulations prohibits the transport of certain Title 2 firearms (DD, MG, SBR, SBS) outside of the State it is registered in, unless the possessor gets BATFE approval (Form 5320.20) prior to transporting it to another State. Failure to obtain BATFE approval for transport equates to a Federal felony for transporting it to another State.

Therefore...
His father must submit a Form 5320.20 for his Title 2 DD, in order to legally transport them to TX.
If approved by the BATFE, his father could then transport them to the TX FFL/SOT that will be doing the transfers.
^While in TX, his father transfers them (Form 4) to the TX FFL/SOT, then the TX FFL/SOT transfers them (Form 4) to him.

The weapons were purchased before the ban and were registered as assault weapons with the state of california in addition to being reigstered as NFA items with the ATF, so no worries there.

Does any of this affect the requirement for an FFL to be a dealer/importer/manufacturer of destructive devices to handle the transfer? That's my primary sticking point, because as I said I don't believe there exists in the state of california an FFL with that license who will do business with a private party.

Under Federal laws/regulations...
Any FFL/SOT can ship it to the appropriate FFL/SOT that will be doing the transfer of the Title 2 DD.

Under CA laws/regulations...
A CA FFL dealer with a valid assault weapons permit is require to ship it, due to it being a RAW.

Therefore...
A CA FFL/SOT dealer with a valid assault weapons permit is required to ship the RAW that is also a Title 2 DD to the TX FFL/SOT dealer.



IMO...

Your father getting BATFE approval (From 5320.20) to transport them to TX and, while in TX, transferring (Form 4) them to a TX FFL/SOT, who will then transfer (Form 4) them to you; will be the least expensive and easiest method to legally transfer them to you.

During the late-90s, the CA FFL/SOT that I used to work for charged $250 per firearm to ship a RAW or NFA firearm to an out-of-state FFL/SOT.

[Wortwood]

Federal laws/regulations prohibits the transport of certain Title 2 firearms (DD, MG, SBR, SBS) outside of the State it is registered in, unless the possessor gets BATFE approval (Form 5320.20) prior to transporting it to another State. Failure to obtain BATFE approval for transport equates to a Federal felony for transporting it to another State.

Therefore...
His father must submit a Form 5320.20 for his Title 2 DD, in order to legally transport them to TX.
If approved by the BATFE, his father could then transport them to the TX FFL/SOT that will be doing the transfers.
^While in TX, his father transfers them (Form 4) to the TX FFL/SOT, then the TX FFL/SOT transfers them (Form 4) to him.


Under Federal laws/regulations...
Any FFL/SOT can ship it to the appropriate FFL/SOT that will be doing the transfer of the Title 2 DD.

Under CA laws/regulations...
A CA FFL dealer with a valid assault weapons permit is require to ship it, due to it being a RAW.

Therefore...
A CA FFL/SOT dealer with a valid assault weapons permit is required to ship the RAW that is also a Title 2 DD to the TX FFL/SOT dealer.



IMO...

Your father getting BATFE approval (From 5320.20) to transport them to TX and, while in TX, transferring (Form 4) them to a TX FFL/SOT, who will then transfer (Form 4) them to you; will be the least expensive and easiest method to legally transfer them to you.

During the late-90s, the CA FFL/SOT that I used to work for charged $250 per firearm to ship a RAW or NFA firearm to an out-of-state FFL/SOT.

Thank you, that seems doable! Do you know if the ATF will make any bones about state residency for any of these transfers? When Form 4-ing it to the FFL, they will not be able to take posession of the item until that Form 4 clears, so would he be able to leave those items in Texas while waiting for that transfer to clear?

My understanding of the law is that as long as no other person has access to the items, e.g. he leaves a locked safe and does not give me the combination, I am not considered to have legally taken posession of the item.

If that is the case, then I can absolutely arrange all of this to be taken care of!

[morrcarr67]

Thank you, that seems doable! Do you know if the ATF will make any bones about state residency for any of these transfers? When Form 4-ing it to the FFL, they will not be able to take posession of the item until that Form 4 clears, so would he be able to leave those items in Texas while waiting for that transfer to clear?



My understanding of the law is that as long as no other person has access to the items, e.g. he leaves a locked safe and does not give me the combination, I am not considered to have legally taken posession of the item.



If that is the case, then I can absolutely arrange all of this to be taken care of!

Just thinking out loud.

Is it possible to file the form 4 while he's here in CA and wait for the approval to transfer to the TX FFL/SOT.

Then file for the moving them from CA to TX and make the road trip to deliver them to the FFL/SOT.

Sent from my motorola one action using Tapatalk

[hermosabeach]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=498708

This is an older thread of dealers in fun stuff in California.