Education for new (and old) counter persons

[acespawnshop]

Interested also

[Librarian]

I'm glad for the interest.

Since the use of this thing would be within area (3), potentially improving sales staff competence and confidence and thereby customer comfort and confidence in your business, what things do your staff(s) desperately need to know?

Pareto principle - 80% of the benefit comes from the first 20% of the work; the remaining 20% benefit is 4 times the work for the first 80%, and might not be worth it. Numbers are soft, but 'low hanging fruit' and such.

[taperxz]

I'm glad for the interest.

Since the use of this thing would be within area (3), potentially improving sales staff competence and confidence and thereby customer comfort and confidence in your business, what things do your staff(s) desperately need to know?

Pareto principle - 80% of the benefit comes from the first 20% of the work; the remaining 20% benefit is 4 times the work for the first 80%, and might not be worth it. Numbers are soft, but 'low hanging fruit' and such.

[taperxz]

For starters, does your ID or DL have your current address or not? If it does, proceed to State laws and regulations.

If it doesn’t, or has a PO Box, please provide us with a government issued document that has YOUR NAME and YOUR ACTUAL PHYSICAL ADDRESS on it.

A vehicle registration works just fine IF it has this information on it and will double for state hand gun purchasing requirements. So will a municipal water, electric or other government controlled utility. Not all government issued documents will satisfy the state requirements and that may need to be resolved with a document on the states list. (Yes, there is a state list of acceptable documents)

[Librarian]

(Yes, there is a state list of acceptable documents)

Indeed, 11 CCR 4045

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

b.1. “Residential lease” means either of the following:

A. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time.
B. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.

2. The residential lease must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

c.1. “Property deed” means either of the following:

A. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust.
B. A valid Certificate of Title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.

2. The property deed must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

d. “Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice” means either of the following:

1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

2. A valid peace officer credential issued by a California law enforcement agency to an active, reserve, or retired peace officer.

Needs to be simplified for this purpose; possible reference to the actual text. https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Doc...ta=(sc.Default)

ETA seems like a good idea to have a doc on 'how to read a CA DL/ID' ... there are books for sale for validating IDs, and pics on the 'net with circles and arrows pointing out features.

[HPT]

I think this would be a good idea and I would like to see something of a standard in our community that we can refer back to. I personally have had CA DOJ show up and give us one more of the "unwritten rules/law" that we need to follow yet they have no law to back it up.

I see part of the issue in our community as we all get different guidance from different DOJ Field reps and therefore confusion sets in at the dealer level as to who is correct. While I do things one way to appease my Field Rep someone with another Field Rep will do things another way to appease theirs.

[Librarian]

I think this would be a good idea and I would like to see something of a standard in our community that we can refer back to. I personally have had CA DOJ show up and give us one more of the "unwritten rules/law" that we need to follow yet they have no law to back it up.

I see part of the issue in our community as we all get different guidance from different DOJ Field reps and therefore confusion sets in at the dealer level as to who is correct. While I do things one way to appease my Field Rep someone with another Field Rep will do things another way to appease theirs.

Collecting that info seems like it would be useful.

There's no need to 'doxx' a rep, but some identifier, maybe initials, ought to be associated with such directives. Ultimately it might be better to run that into a lawsuit ...

[morrcarr67]

Much of what all of you suggest is sound...in theory. The down side is, how do you get around experienced guidance from thos of us in the business when confronted with a legal entity (DOJ/ATF) that says "your wrong, do it this way".
I've had an ATF field agent tell me at the SHOT Show exactly what MORRCAFF67 noted about "anything that shoots modern ammunition doesn't qualify as a C&R". And, DOJ advising ,"short barrelled rifles even though listed in ATF FIREARMS, CURIOS OR RELICS are illegal CA.
How do you lay out "procedure" only to have it, potentially, erroneously nullified?

Or am I missing the point here....?

That's pretty bad. I hadn't heard ATF say that.

The funny thing is that almost all of the "popular" cartridges used today are over 100 years old. How "modern" can they be?

9MM Luger/Parabellum est. 1902
.38 S&W Special est 1898
.32 ACP est 1899
.380 ACP est 1908
.45 ACP est 1904

[Librarian]

And, DOJ advising ,"short barrelled rifles even though listed in ATF FIREARMS, CURIOS OR RELICS are illegal CA.

This part is accurate - see http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...r=8.&article=1.

No exceptions in there for C&R.

ETA but, see further, below, referring to other provisions in PC.

[morrcarr67]

This part is accurate - see http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...r=8.&article=1.



No exceptions in there for C&R.

When did that change? They used to be legal.

Sent from my motorola one action using Tapatalk

[????? ????]

Penal Code section 17705, subdivision (a) still exists, but people will argue about what it means. It says:

The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and that is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items under Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code section 16590 is a list of generally prohibited weapons, such as short-barreled shotguns.

[Librarian]

When did that change? They used to be legal.

Sent from my motorola one action using Tapatalk

Penal Code section 17705, subdivision (a) still exists, but people will argue about what it means. It says:

The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and that is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items under Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code section 16590 is a list of generally prohibited weapons, such as short-barreled shotguns.

Hmm.

Looking at all the pieces, now I would think you're right and I was wrong.

This kind of interconnection of separated bits of PC is why we have lawyers.

Thanks.

[Tyke8319]

Hmm.

Looking at all the pieces, now I would think you're right and I was wrong.

This kind of interconnection of separated bits of PC is why we have lawyers.

Thanks.

Exactly. Some of you might remember my discussion on this forum regarding a C&R (an original lever action Win. 94 "Trapper" mfg'd in 1923) about two years back. I argued vehemently with my DOJ rep. who, when finally presented with all the facts, codes (especially 17705), and logic for over a year, finally relented and the rifle was Reg'd as a C&R.

That is the sort of thing we will always be confronted with until all FFL's and ALL DOJ personnel are on the same page...and that ain't gunna happen.

But, I totally support that idea of a document for CA ffl's and employees that concisely organizes those operational requirements that make the paperwork flow more easily and consistently.

[????? ????]

For further reference, and relevant to discussion about exceptions to PC16590, Penal Code section 17710 is the exception for generally prohibited weapons as long as you have an "Any Other Weapon" tax stamp. PC17710 says:
And Penal Code section 17700 says: "The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to any antique firearm."

And stuff like this is what there needs to be a normalization and uniformity, so that everyone, dealers, law enforcement, and attorneys, understands what is going on.

But something like that is in dispute, so maybe any such document from this project should be limited to undisputed areas such as documents needed for purchase of firearms.

One other thing that can be included that is probably not subject to much argument are gun locks and safe affidavits. I have noticed some inconsistency in dealing with the safe/DOJ-certified lockbox affidavits.

[Librarian]

So let's treat this like a Real Project and add some milestones.

I propose we should have a draft outline by March 1; I expect the participation in this thread should make that uncontroversial by then.

Can't pick the deliverable dates for the content pages until we know what those will be, but should be able to offer dates the week of March 1 .

ronlglock, would you consider being editor for this thing? I can do it, mechanically, but my 'voice' is pretty academic and probably less effective in a casual, self-directed learning environment. Experience writing for a different audience would be a big plus, I think.