Release on Undetermined - FFL Liable

[ugimports]

According to DOJ's latest training webinar they are now saying FFL is liable if a release on undetermined gun ends up in a crime.

Lame.

ETA: more context:
Someone asked what is (worst case scenario) related to deliver on undetermined ... Trainer said if DOJ came back person is prohibited after you delivered, they would send out someone to retrieve firearm. However, in meantime, person could commit crime with firearm. From a civil standpoint said usually lawsuits name EVERYONE included in transaction which would include dealer .. but there has been no precedent for dealer being held liable ... but possible in worst case scenario.

So I guess they aren't saying criminal, but are saying you may be sued in a civil suit.

[apbrian112]

Can the FFL then turn around and hold the DOJ liable for not doing a better job in ascertaining whether an individual is or isn't prohibited from possessing/purchasing firearms? You know, like they're supposed to?

If only...

[ugimports]

Well the DOJ doesn't care if they are in a civil suit...our money funds it..they'll just settle and raise our fees to cover it.

[RickD427]

Can the FFL then turn around and hold the DOJ liable for not doing a better job in ascertaining whether an individual is or isn't prohibited from possessing/purchasing firearms? You know, like they're supposed to?

If only...

Well the DOJ doesn't care if they are in a civil suit...our money funds it..they'll just settle and raise our fees to cover it.

Gents,

Where the DOJ employee reviews a record and makes an assessment of it's content, they are engaging in a "Discretionary" act. The government employee enjoys immunity from civil judgment under GC 820.2 and the agency enjoys immunity under GC 815.2(b).

This is a main reason that you see so many statutes written in a way that provides some level of decision-making authority to government employees and agencies.

[BONECUTTER]

If you wan't zero liability get out of the gun industry. If you do your part and follow the Law you are fine. We don't run background checks. We submit them to DOJ to do. When they give us the deliver button and the "you can release" letter they are begrudging giving us the OK. We know a Federal check has cleared them (Hence the NICS number).

Not delivering the firearm means you are choosing to deprive someone their constitutional right for no reason. I feel that's more likely to get you sued.

[ugimports]

If you wan't zero liability get out of the gun industry. If you do your part and follow the Law you are fine. We don't run background checks. We submit them to DOJ to do. When they give us the deliver button and the "you can release" letter they are begrudging giving us the OK. We know a Federal check has cleared them (Hence the NICS number).

Not delivering the firearm means you are choosing to deprive someone their constitutional right for no reason. I feel that's more likely to get you sued.

I think it is interesting though that DOJ actually is covering this and saying what they are saying in the training webinars. Why are they bringing it up at all if not to try and discourage dealers from delivering? My wife (who was in the training) said about half the participants currently deliver on undetermined. They previously never had an "official" stance, but clearly they do now.

[Tyke8319]

And, lets face it, you can be sued even if you release a gun on "Approved" and the gun is used criminally. I think we've all seen that a time or two on the "news".
I think that's where a dealer, dare I say, sorta must "profile" the customer and make a judgment call when releasing on "Undetermined".

[taperxz]

And, lets face it, you can be sued even if you release a gun on "Approved" and the gun is used criminally. I think we've all seen that a time or two on the "news".
I think that's where a dealer, dare I say, sorta must "profile" the customer and make a judgment call when releasing on "Undetermined".

To clarify, The language used for undetermined is "the dealer may deliver"

The language used for an approved DROS is "the dealer may deliver"

This is from my lawyer who i highly respect.

[Tyke8319]

To clarify further, I will look at someone who is "Undetermined" much harder than one who is "approved"! But that's just me...

[BONECUTTER]

To clarify further, I will look at someone who is "Undetermined" much harder than one who is "approved"! But that's just me...

I look out for straw purchases and suspicious activity but I'm not a trained investigator.

I've had a Sworn Peace officer go undetermined.
I've had a CA CCW holder be denied.
I've all sold a guns to the shadiest MS13 looking guy I've ever seen in front of me who was a DEA agent and worked undercover.

I've only had one person who DOJ said they denied after the undetermined notice and DOJ still could not ask me to not deliver or provide me with anything in writing that he was denied. They just informed me if we did deliver they would have to go get the firearm. I called the customer and he didn't want his door kicked in so I refunded him.

[Tyke8319]

I look out for straw purchases and suspicious activity but I'm not a trained investigator.

I've had a Sworn Peace officer go undetermined.
I've had a CA CCW holder be denied.
I've all sold a guns to the shadiest MS13 looking guy I've ever seen in front of me who was a DEA agent and worked undercover.

I've only had one person who DOJ said they denied after the undetermined notice and DOJ still could not ask me to not deliver or provide me with anything in writing that he was denied. They just informed me if we did deliver they would have to go get the firearm. I called the customer and he didn't want his door kicked in so I refunded him.

You do what ya gotta do. I do what I gotta do.

[Skip_Dog]

Nothing stops people from suing any body and everybody these days. Does not matter if they bought it legal. If they were cleared in 10 days, 30 days or undetermined. People are sue happy. Sue the dealer, manufacturer and anyone else. Only one who is a "good person" is the criminal. They were just getting their stuff back on track.

[GoingQuiet]

What is an undetermined gun?

[ugimports]

What is an undetermined gun?

The reference was to the background check status for the transferee when it isn't Approved or Denied

[pacrat]

I find it ludicrous that DOJ is ignoring the PLCAA in its cautionary statement. As likely reason for no precedent.

But fails to mention the real possibility of civil liability for "Breach of Contract". For failing to lawfully deliver on "undetermined".

This is Ca, so yes, anybody, can be sued anytime, for anything.

UG said;

They previously never had an "official" stance, but clearly they do now.

Which still means nothing in the real world. Remember Kamala's "official DOJ stance" regarding return of LEGR firearms? Even sent an actual letter to All LEA in the state.

Then, when 4 LEA got sued, and lost, using her "official letter" as justification for their extra legal actions.

Her "official stance" became;

"COPS DUMB ENOUGH TO BELIEVE A LIAR LIKE ME, TO BAD, SO SAD, THEY'RE ON THEIR OWN".