Rhetorical Question -- Second Hand Dealers License

[taperxz]

Have you ever had the DOJ give you incorrect information? We have. I don't think it would be in your best interest to ignore the BPC that specifically states what you must do to purchase 'tangible personal property'

Nobody regardless of their position of employment can grant you permission to break the law. And the law is pretty clearly written that you need a 2nd hand license to buy.

I had/still have a contractors license for 20 years and opinions of the law changed with the wind there too.

[acespawnshop]

Other than whats been said here on calguns about the topic. Has anybody received anything in writing from the DOJ about not needing one? Also, its not entirely impossible that the person at the DOJ that gave this information was either ignorant on the topic or spouting their opinion rather than the actual position taken by the department.

[taperxz]

So, from what I read, any person who is engaged in the business of buying "tangible personal property" as defined by the BPC, and it would seem that firearms definitely fall under the category of "tangible personal property" would need a 2nd hand dealer license to buy them. It would seem that the info you got from DOJ about only needing them for consignments is incorrect. Also omitted in my post here is the BPC that deals with reporting the purchases of 'tangible personal property' through the CAPSS system. If you go read all the BPC starting with 21625 and ending with 21641 you will see that there is no way you can buy firearms without a secondhand license and reporting though the CAPSS, the reporting under the DES would fall under the PC therefore you have to report

We had a second hand license and had no access to CAPSS.

[acespawnshop]

We had a second hand license and had no access to CAPSS.

How? Did you register and sign up for it? A letter went out to all 2nd hand and pawnbrokers about 3 years ago explaining how to set up your loggin. You can manually enter the JUS123 information or do a bulk upload if your software is capable of such a thing, (we had to pay about $750 to buy the digital thumbprint and signature pads to be compliant with CAPSS, and to our software support to install a module that does bulk police uploads to the CAPSS system)

Not to mention that now all your 2ndhand renewals and pawn license renewals are done through the CAPSS system. You have to apply for renewal through CAPSS then take payment to your local law enforcement agency who sends your check payable to the DOJ to DOJ for your renewal, then DOJ sends your license back to your local PD/ Sheriff.

[taperxz]

How? Did you register and sign up for it? A letter went out to all 2nd hand and pawnbrokers about 3 years ago explaining how to set up your loggin. You can manually enter the JUS123 information or do a bulk upload if your software is capable of such a thing, (we had to pay about $750 to buy the digital thumbprint and signature pads to be compliant with CAPSS, and to our software support to install a module that does bulk police uploads to the CAPSS system)

We were told that stuff is only for pawn dealers. We were not granted access and told to use the DES and wait the 30 days

[acespawnshop]

We were told that stuff is only for pawn dealers. We were not granted access and told to use the DES and wait the 30 days

WTF? So did you do manual JUS123 and send thumbprints and signatures to the local PD still?

[taperxz]

WTF? So did you do manual JUS123 and send thumbprints and signatures to the local PD still?

None of it. The local PD said it was not needed as we were not a pawn shop and DOJ conquered. It was even in the instructions. (which i no longer have since i don't do buys or consignments any more.

[Nardo1895]

First, this did start out as a rhetorical question as I was planning to renew regardless, but as the answers started to come in and I checked with DOJ it became much more practical and less rhetorical :-)

Second, you'all are way more versed in this than I so I hesitate to even offer an opinion, but I will add two points.

1. I have never used CAPSS, even with my second hand dealers license. From the DOJ CAPSS FAQs:

I only deal in FIREARMS and I have an active secondhand dealer license; am I required to report into CAPSS?

Firearm dealers must register in CAPSS for the licensing administration (license fees, renewals) however, you are not to report FIREARMS into CAPSS. As a dealer you must still report firearm transactions via FDAS/DROS.

2. Kemasa and I independantly confirmed with our DOJ Field Reps that a SHDL is only required for consignments. We're a couple hundred miles apart so I assume we don't have the same DOJ field rep. I wish I could get it in writing but I've never gotten a written answer from them on any question - only verbal.

[taperxz]

First, this did start out as a rhetorical question as I was planning to renew regardless, but as the answers started to come in and I checked with DOJ it became much more practical and less rhetorical :-)

Second, you'all are way more versed in this than I so I hesitate to even offer an opinion, but I will add two points.

1. I have never used CAPSS, even with my second hand dealers license. From the DOJ CAPSS FAQs:

I only deal in FIREARMS and I have an active secondhand dealer license; am I required to report into CAPSS?

Firearm dealers must register in CAPSS for the licensing administration (license fees, renewals) however, you are not to report FIREARMS into CAPSS. As a dealer you must still report firearm transactions via FDAS/DROS.

2. Kemasa and I independantly confirmed with our DOJ Field Reps that a SHDL is only required for consignments. We're a couple hundred miles apart so I assume we don't have the same DOJ field rep. I wish I could get it in writing but I've never gotten a written answer from them on any question - only verbal.

This is exactly my understanding too.

[acespawnshop]

I just don't see how you can't comply with the BPC on this one. I think we are in agreement now that a 2nd hand license is required to buy from the public and now we have moved on to is it required to report those buys to CAPSS or not.

[acespawnshop]

For us, we will continue to do the JUS123 just as I have done for over a decade now and report though CAPSS and we will run our buys, pawns and consignments through the DES also. I can tell you for one in my last DOJ audit they wanted to see my acquisitions through the DES and the corresponding ID/ and thumbprint. I can also tell you I have never had a law enforcement agency ask to see a JUS123 copy that wasn't already remitted to them via either the newly implemented CAPSS or the old paper JUS123 thumbprints we used to take to the PD.

LEO's seem to have no idea on how 2nd hand licensing works and what we are required to do. I even had one agency in fact tell me that they do not have the staffing to check our JUS123's and that we don't need to bring those to them, however, as I stated in the BPC and pointed out to the guy at the PD counter I was required to do so, and if they didn't want them they can toss them out.

[taperxz]

I just don't see how you can't comply with the BPC on this one. I think we are in agreement now that a 2nd hand license is required to buy from the public and now we have moved on to is it required to report those buys to CAPSS or not.

LUCKY ME! I just found out our PD has our renewal they never sent to us. So, i guess we are still a second hand dealer. LOL

PD again said CAPPS is only required for Pawn and no JUS 123 any more. We are told by DOJ to only use the DES system for aquisitions.

[acespawnshop]

Figures, I never received a copy of my pawn license when I renewed in 2014. It got misplaced at the PD and I never got a copy of it, we had the old one on the wall for ever. I got the renewal in 2016 and again in 2018. But the ball got dropped, I know it was valid in 2014 and the PD admitted they lost my copy, assured me I would get a replacement and it never happened. It wasn't a big deal. Now we have a girl in the PD office who handles all this stuff and is really nice. In 2016 she sent one of the explorer kids down here in a city vehicle to drop off our pawn license. In 2018 she mailed it to me. Nice folks here at WCPD.

[Nardo1895]

In case anyone is still interested in this topic...

I decided to not renew my second hand license after I talked to my DOJ Field Rep who said it was not required to buy or sell used firearms; it was only required to consign or pawn firearms.

I then got a note from my LEO who handles Firearms Business Licenses in my county. He said my Second hand license was expiring and I needed to renew it as per his DOJ rep. I sent him a copy of the email I got from my DOJ rep saying I didn't need one. He raised the issue again with DOJ and upon checking, DOJ determined it was not required except for pawns, consignments, or trades. He said there was confusion in the code, but it was clarified by a (recent?) code change. He did not cite the reference.