Does the FFL or DOJ know...?

[Dabutt]

Let's say a person arrived at an FFL with some non roster guns and said he was a new resident. But actually had always lived here. How would anyone know?
Let's say a person arrived at an FFL with some non roster guns and a photocopy of a driver's license and letter from a woman in Arizona stating that this gun is a gift to her son. Would anyone discover that this woman is just a friend and the actual mother is deceased?

[NORCAL#1]

WTF lol

[rbetts]

We know everything and we can spot a n'er do well from a mile away. With one push of a button, the ATF and DOJ will swoop down and faceplant you, arrest you for your crimes and send you to the pokey for some more pokey in Dabutt. Don't even think about it!

[taperxz]

Let's say a person arrived at an FFL with some non roster guns and said he was a new resident. But actually had always lived here. How would anyone know?
Let's say a person arrived at an FFL with some non roster guns and a photocopy of a driver's license and letter from a woman in Arizona stating that this gun is a gift to her son. Would anyone discover that this woman is just a friend and the actual mother is deceased?

So, the person committed a crime and shows up to an FFL. The real question is what do you supposed the FFL is supposed to do in that situation anyway?

[SkyHawk]

If you already have the guns, why are you showing up with them at a FFL at all?

Sure, no red flags there - go for it man. If you get it wrong, it's only a felony and a loss of your gun rights forever in the USA. You could always move to Mexico though...

[Dabutt]

We know everything and we can spot a n'er do well from a mile away. With one push of a button, the ATF and DOJ will swoop down and faceplant you, arrest you for your crimes and send you to the pokey for some more pokey in Dabutt. Don't even think about it!

Do you actually have any info, or only jokes? How would the FFL or the DOJ know if the drivers license belongs to my actual mother, or just to a random woman in Arizona? Or how would the FFL know if I am actually a new resident, if I show up with a California Drivers License?

[Dabutt]

So, the person committed a crime and shows up to an FFL. The real question is what do you supposed the FFL is supposed to do in that situation anyway?

Actually, uh No. The person did not commit a crime by taking a non-roster gun to an FFL. That is exactly what a person is supposed to do if they are bringing non-roster guns into the state as a new resident, or if they were legally gifted them from an out of state Parent or Child. So the question still remains unanswered. How could an FFL know if the person before them is actually a new resident, or if the Drivers License of the out of state person that gifted the gun is actually a blood relative?

[SkyHawk]

Do you actually have any info, or only jokes? How would the FFL or the DOJ know if the drivers license belongs to my actual mother, or just to a random woman in Arizona? Or how would the FFL know if I am actually a new resident, if I show up with a California Drivers License?

Answer the question about why you are showing up to a FFL at all, bringing with you guns already in your possession? So far, you are not making any sense. You are sort of asking an implausible question.

[Dabutt]

If you already have the guns, why are you showing up with them at a FFL at all?

Sure, no red flags there - go for it man. If you get it wrong, it's only a felony and a loss of your gun rights forever in the USA. You could always move to Mexico though...

Because, perhaps the person visited Arizona and was gifted the non-roster gun by a parent. Which is legal and requires a visit to a California FFL. Or perhaps the person is a new resident, which also requires a visit to an FFL. But if the person bought the gun cash private party in Arizona, how would the FFL know the original questions that were asked?

[SkyHawk]

Actually, uh No. The person did not commit a crime by taking a non-roster gun to an FFL. That is exactly what a person is supposed to do if they are bringing non-roster guns into the state as a new resident, or if they were legally gifted them from an out of state Parent or Child.

You are dead wrong. You clearly have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

A person moving into this DOES NOT go to a FFL with their guns. A person who was at some point in their life gifted a gun, DOES NOT GO TO A FFL with them to check in, register them, etc.

A person moving into this state with guns as a new resident MAILS IN A FORM OR COMPLETES IT ONLINE. At that point the DOJ will do a thorough state and federal background check on that person. They will not be impressed if they find out you always were living here.

A person who is being gifted a gun via a FFL transfer CANNOT HAVE THE GUN FIRST. That should be obvious. The gun must arrive to the FFL by mail, usually from another FFL, or in limited cases the person GIFTING the gun from out of state must show up in person with the gun to be gifted.

[Dano3467]

5 posts...nice

[SkyHawk]

And here is something else you should know: CA PC 27585 makes it a FELONY for a CA resident to cross the border into CA or otherwise import into CA, a gun they acquired outside of CA, unless that gun is first delivered by carrier to a FFL in CA for processing.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=27585.&lawCode=PEN

27585.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

If you are not a new resident, you better not be bringing newly acquired guns into the state unless they are shipped to your FFL, where the roster applies etc.

If you are a CA resident and someone out of state, even family, gives you a gun, it is a crime to bring it back here. It must be sent to your FFL first.

[Dabutt]

Answer the question about why you are showing up to a FFL at all, bringing with you guns already in your possession? So far, you are not making any sense. You are sort of asking an implausible question.

Many individuals may visit a free state like Arizona, let's say. And their actual birth mother may give them a gift gun that is not on the roster. OR she may even mail it to an FFL here in California so that her son may legally register it. However, when the son arrives to claim the gun, and start the 10 day waiting period, the drivers license photo, and name of the woman does not match his last name because she has remarried. Does the FFL just ask the CA resident, "who is this woman?" And he states that it is his mother. Does anyone actually check this info? What if the woman that sent the gun to the FFL is just some random lady from Arizona?

[SkyHawk]

Many individuals may visit a free state like Arizona, let's say. And their actual birth mother may give them a gift gun that is not on the roster. OR she may even mail it to an FFL here in California so that her son may legally register it. However, when the son arrives to claim the gun, and start the 10 day waiting period, the drivers license photo, and name of the woman does not match his last name because she has remarried. Does the FFL just ask the CA resident, "who is this woman?" And he states that it is his mother. Does anyone actually check this info? What if the woman that sent the gun to the FFL is just some random lady from Arizona?

If you go to AZ and your mother gives you a gun, you cannot bring it back here. Period. And you and your mom are both Federal felons when she hands you the gun to keep.

PC27585. 18 USC 922

So let's drop the fantasy scenario that you show up at a CA FFL gun in hand to confess your felony violation of 27585 and 18 USC 922.

Moving on to your next point, about mailing a gun here:

Many FFLs *will not accept shipments* from non-licensees (meaning your real or imagined mom), for reasons like the one you are proposing. Most will only accept shipments from other FFLs. Because they want to know who the guns they are logging onto their bound books are coming from, and a fuzzy photocopy ID doesn't cut it for most.

Any FFL in the USA shipping a gun to a FFL in CA must first get shipment approval from the DOJ using the CFLC system.

If you have an off roster gun delivered to your FFL and some random lady's name is on the license along with the gift letter, you better also bring along an original copy of your birth certificate which shows your birth mother as that same lady.

Let me keep it real for you: Most FFLs in CA will not even touch interstate intrafamily off roster gift transfers. There is no law that says they must, and most will not. Of those that do - trust and believe they will want to have all their ducks in a row. They can make up ANY requirement they want to satisfy themselves they are doing something legit. Some will want notarized gift documents, birth certificates etc. Most others will only do it for customers they have an established relationship with.

So as to your question "how will they know" - of the VERY FEW who even do these, they are VERY SMART and also VERY WARY. If they get hinked out at all, they will ship the gun back where it came from and probably refer your name to DOJ and ATF.

[Quiet]

Because, perhaps the person visited Arizona and was gifted the non-roster gun by a parent. Which is legal and requires a visit to a California FFL. Or perhaps the person is a new resident, which also requires a visit to an FFL. But if the person bought the gun cash private party in Arizona, how would the FFL know the original questions that were asked?

Federal laws prohibits the transfer of firearms between residents of different State unless a FFL it utilized. [18 USC 922(a)(3)&(5)]
^There is no gift exemption to the Federal laws.

Failure to utilize a FFL equates to a Federal felony for everyone involved with the transfer. [18 USC 924(a)(1)(D)]

CA laws requires a firearm acquired by a CA resident in another State to be transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27585(a)]
^There is no gift exemption to this CA law.

Failure to utilize a CA FFL dealer equates to one CA felony for every handgun and one CA misdemeanor for every long gun, that it imported into CA. [PC 27590(a)&(c)(7)]

Therefore, in order to be legal under Federal and CA laws...
1. The gifter (AZ parent) must ship the firearm to a CA FFL dealer.
2. The gifter must include a copy of their State DL/ID and a gift letter with the firearm.
3. After the firearm arrives at the CA FFL dealer, that FFL will then transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait/1 in 30 day wait) the firearm to the giftee (CA child).


For new residents of CA...

After the new resident establishes residency in CA (obtains a CA DL), they have 60 days to register all the firearms they brought with them to CA. [PC 27560]
^This is done by mailing in a complete New Resident Firearm Ownership report to CA DOJ BOF or by submitting an online report via the CA DOJ online firearm application reporting system (CFARS). [PC 27560(a)(1)]

The new resident does not require the use of a CA FFL dealer and there is no legal reason why a CA FFL dealer would get involved with this.