How to return a rifle?

[ke6guj]

I doubt that is legal. A form 4 is between 2 parties. Once the title 1 gun is engraved it has to submitted to atf. Then it becomes a completely different gun and must be transfered as a new gun. Who pays the $200 stamp?

I forgot to mention, I have an ATF letter somewhere in my archives that says that it is legal to do so, direct back to owner without any additional FFL's involved.

[ScottsBad]

I'm not a FFL, but I've shipped rifles and pistols to have worked done and they were able to ship them directly back. Am I missing something? I want to make sure I follow the law.

[ke6guj]

I'm not a FFL, but I've shipped rifles and pistols to have worked done and they were able to ship them directly back. Am I missing something? I want to make sure I follow the law.

ATF tries to draw a difference between gunsmithing on an already-completed rifle or pistol and working on a customer-provided receiver to add the rest of the parts to have a complete rifle/pistol. they want to say that that is manufacturing, not gunsmithing. even though on an AR, it was just assembling a box of parts like it was Legos. no real skill required to put together a basic AR.

in this case, the OP's customer sent off a 100% brand "XYZ" receiver to FFL "ABC" to assemble for him. why? I don't know. FFL "ABC" put it together and added their manufacturer "ABC" markings to the gun. why? because ATF makes it unclear to some whether that they did gunsmithing or manufacturing when they assembled the customer-provided receiver into a complete rifle.

if that is manufacturing, then what about a guy who sends in a complete rifle and wants the entire thing stripped down to the receiver and built up with new components. maybe the only original part left is the bolt-catch, hell, even that is swapped to a BAD-lever design. not one part from the orginal gun remains other than the receiver and then it is built up using new parts. gunsmithing or manufacturing?


but to answer your question, no, you aren't missing anything. the law, both CA and federal law, says that it is legal to send a firearm to an FFL, (dealer or manufacturer), for gunsmithing services, and to have that firearms sent back to you directly. no additional FFL needed to facilate the outgoing or incoming shipping.

[RZ Operations]

The type of FFL does not matter, it is not manufacturing, it is gunsmith work. The firearm was shipped to the FFL by the owner and it can be shipped directly back. If the FFL built up the firearm when they owned the lower, then it would be manufacturing.

The firearm can be shipped directly back. It might be an idea to check to see if the gunsmith FFL would be willing to ship the lower back directly. The upper is not a firearm and can be shipped directly back. I would also suggest that the customer contact the gunsmith FFL and have the FFL ask the BATF, since they should say that it can be shipped directly back. If they don't, then I can get them in contact with a BATF person who is reasonable and knows the laws.

If it goes through you, a FFL, you have to treat it like any other transfer (4473, DROS). You would need a letter stating that it was owned by the customer so that you don't need to collect sales tax.

Thanks for the confirmation! I am also curious about this hypothetical scenario now. Let's say that instead of this customer shipping the lower out on his own, he instead requests that I ship it out for him on his behalf. The FFL doing the gunsmith work would essentially need to ship it back to me now and the customer would be once again forced to do a 4473/DROS?

[kemasa]

No, it is the same, still gunsmith work and when returned, no 4473 required. It does not matter if you do the work or send it out. But you can only directly return it if it went through you.

[RZ Operations]

No, it is the same, still gunsmith work and when returned, no 4473 required. It does not matter if you do the work or send it out. But you can only directly return it if it went through you.

So this hypothetical scenario would look like this...

Log into bound book from customer. Log out to other FFL that is doing the gunsmith work. Gunsmith ships back to me and I log back into my bound book and log back out to customer without 4473/DROS?

[kemasa]

Yes, but you should either have a bound book for gunsmith work or make a note that it is gunsmith work so as to explain the lack of a 4473.

[RZ Operations]

Yes, but you should either have a bound book for gunsmith work or make a note that it is gunsmith work so as to explain the lack of a 4473.

Thank you for your help!

[kemasa]

You are welcome.

[audiophil2]

I know that TROS has been doing that for years. I assume that they have gone through at least one audit since then and it would have been brought up if not legal.

offically TROS pays for the stamp since the transferor is responsible to pay the tax on a requested Form 4 transfer. yes, we know in practice, that the transforee usually pays the tax, but if the Form 4 is denied or voided, ATF refunds the $200 to the transferor, TROS.

and sometimes that stamp is $5. people send off title I "others" to have made into AOWs.

ATF allows a lot of wrong things to occur and then they shut down the shop or it slips by forever because it is better ot keep it quiet than to fix it. Guess how many post 86 machine guns I have seen that have been transferred to regular civilians?


It is manufacturing. A title 1 gun changed to a title 2 NFA item is manufacturing. It is not gunsmithing. It requires a standard NFA back ground check since it is a brand new gun and once the stamp is sent to the FFL the customer can fill out a 4473 and check the box stating a NICS background check is not required because he is picking up an NFA item. The back of the form 4 has to be filled out by the person applying for the form 4 and has questions similar to a 4473 and that is why a NICS is not required. How can a gun shop fill that out legally? It has to be signed by the person applying for the form 4.

If customer A send his title 1 Spikes tactical reveiver to an 07/02FFL to turn it into an SBR the o7/02 FFL has to engrave the 07/02 FFL name and city,state. The original model and serial number could be used because it is now in the NFA registry as:
MANUFACTURER: ALPHACAT
MODEL: SHORT SHOOTER
TYPE: SBR
BARELL LENGTH: WHATEVER YOU WANT TO PUT
SERIAL NUMBER: ALPHA001
OAL: 27"
CALIBER: 5.56MM

The FFL then send in his manufacturing report the same day he manufactured the gun to the NFA branch.


I'd like ot see this file oyu have where a manufacturer can do what oyu allege. It sounds more like a variance but AFAIK that is for 07 to 07 only.

[ke6guj]

ATF allows a lot of wrong things to occur and then they shut down the shop or it slips by forever because it is better ot keep it quiet than to fix it. Guess how many post 86 machine guns I have seen that have been transferred to regular civilians?

I totally understand your reluctance.

It is manufacturing. A title 1 gun changed to a title 2 NFA item is manufacturing. It is not gunsmithing. It requires a standard NFA back ground check since it is a brand new gun and once the stamp is sent to the FFL the customer can fill out a 4473 and check the box stating a NICS background check is not required because he is picking up an NFA item. The back of the form 4 has to be filled out by the person applying for the form 4 and has questions similar to a 4473 and that is why a NICS is not required. How can a gun shop fill that out legally? It has to be signed by the person applying for the form 4.

the customer fills out that part of the Form 4 and sends it to the FFL. pre-41F, the customer would need to get the CLEO sign-off anyways and then get the Form 4 back to the shop.

nothing says that the customer must fill out and sign the Form 4 in front of the FFL that I know of.

If customer A send his title 1 Spikes tactical reveiver to an 07/02FFL to turn it into an SBR the o7/02 FFL has to engrave the 07/02 FFL name and city,state. The original model and serial number could be used because it is now in the NFA registry as:
MANUFACTURER: ALPHACAT
MODEL: SHORT SHOOTER
TYPE: SBR
BARELL LENGTH: WHATEVER YOU WANT TO PUT
SERIAL NUMBER: ALPHA001
OAL: 27"
CALIBER: 5.56MM

The FFL then send in his manufacturing report the same day he manufactured the gun to the NFA branch.

totally understand how all that works.

I'd like ot see this file oyu have where a manufacturer can do what oyu allege. It sounds more like a variance but AFAIK that is for 07 to 07 only.

here you go, right on the ATF website.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The
manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2.
The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which
results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a
clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know
the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms
Technology Branch.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

the only way I think an out-of-state manufacturer would submit a Form 4 and need to explain to the NFA branch the circumstances of the transfer is if it is being returned directly back to the owner. otherwise, it would be sent to an in-state FFL on a Form 3 and no clarification letter would be needed.



and then I found my conversation with an NFA-examiner, who confirmed with Gary Schaible that it was kosher. I assume you know who Mr. Schaible is.

Hi Dan,

Is there any other info on that that you can offer. Would that work for pistol-gripped shotguns that would be AOWed by chopping the barrel or is it only for pistols that want to AOW with the forward grip?

I inquired with a couple 07/02s about this recently when I first saw this link mentioned. Nobody that responded was familiar with the practice.

Thanks, Jack

***********

It applies to any Title I weapon which will become a Title II weapon after the 07/02 does their work. SBR, SBS, AOW..etc. I guess if FOPA '86 ever goes away, it could apply to full auto conversions on existing Title I weapons as well.

Whoever actually does the conversion will have to be the one to engrave their "makers" info too - which could be beneficial for resale since you would have some 07/02 info on the weapon versus "John Doe, Anytown, US".

I'm not sure that unless you have a friend that is an 07/02 that the cost would be beneficial for SBR or SBS since you are going to have to pay for their time, labor, shipping, and the $200 transfer - but it is an option.

Hope that helps.

Dan.

**********

thanks for the info.

Is there any other documentation out there that confirms this? A couple more 07/02s have responded back, but they felt that the option only applied to the pistol>AOW option stated. Also, what type of clarification letter would need to be submitted to the NFA for an out-of-state Form 4?

It looks like there might a couple guys willing to work with us if all the specifics were worked out. However, one problem did pop up. If I send him a Cruiser-type shotgun, he doesn't think that he can AOW it since he can't verify that it never had a stock on it. Gotta think about solutions to that.

Thanks for you time, Jack

**********

I'll see what I can find and let you know - probably won't be until mid next week.

Dan.

Of course you could always write a letter to NFA Branch for clarification..!!

**********

Thanks for the help.

As for writing for clarification, I might have been born at night, but not LAST night

I know all about people continually writing letters regarding the same thing and getting the ATF determination/opinion changing from a positive ruling to a negative ruling. Writing is the last option.

Thanks, Jack

**********

Okay, I spoke with Gary Schaible yesterday, who is the NFA Branch Program Manager, in an attempt to get some actual references for you. Here is what we came up with:

The NFA is silent on the issue - meaning if it doesn't specifically prohibit it, then it is okay.

Where interstate transfer of firearms is controlled is the Gun Control Act. Specifically Title 27 CFR Chapter II Part 478.147 (Return of Firearms). I don't feel like spelling the whole section out, but any FFL holder should have a copy of the Federal Firearm Regulations Reference Guide and be able to look it up. It should also be available on atf.gov.

Hope that helps.

Dan.

[audiophil2]

I totally understand your reluctance.


the customer fills out that part of the Form 4 and sends it to the FFL. pre-41F, the customer would need to get the CLEO sign-off anyways and then get the Form 4 back to the shop.

nothing says that the customer must fill out and sign the Form 4 in front of the FFL that I know of.

totally understand how all that works.


here you go, right on the ATF website.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The
manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2.
The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which
results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a
clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know
the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms
Technology Branch.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

the only way I think an out-of-state manufacturer would submit a Form 4 and need to explain to the NFA branch the circumstances of the transfer is if it is being returned directly back to the owner. otherwise, it would be sent to an in-state FFL on a Form 3 and no clarification letter would be needed.



and then I found my conversation with an NFA-examiner, who confirmed with Gary Schaible that it was kosher. I assume you know who Mr. Schaible is.

Hi Dan,

Is there any other info on that that you can offer. Would that work for pistol-gripped shotguns that would be AOWed by chopping the barrel or is it only for pistols that want to AOW with the forward grip?

I inquired with a couple 07/02s about this recently when I first saw this link mentioned. Nobody that responded was familiar with the practice.

Thanks, Jack

***********

It applies to any Title I weapon which will become a Title II weapon after the 07/02 does their work. SBR, SBS, AOW..etc. I guess if FOPA '86 ever goes away, it could apply to full auto conversions on existing Title I weapons as well.

Whoever actually does the conversion will have to be the one to engrave their "makers" info too - which could be beneficial for resale since you would have some 07/02 info on the weapon versus "John Doe, Anytown, US".

I'm not sure that unless you have a friend that is an 07/02 that the cost would be beneficial for SBR or SBS since you are going to have to pay for their time, labor, shipping, and the $200 transfer - but it is an option.

Hope that helps.

Dan.

**********

thanks for the info.

Is there any other documentation out there that confirms this? A couple more 07/02s have responded back, but they felt that the option only applied to the pistol>AOW option stated. Also, what type of clarification letter would need to be submitted to the NFA for an out-of-state Form 4?

It looks like there might a couple guys willing to work with us if all the specifics were worked out. However, one problem did pop up. If I send him a Cruiser-type shotgun, he doesn't think that he can AOW it since he can't verify that it never had a stock on it. Gotta think about solutions to that.

Thanks for you time, Jack

**********

I'll see what I can find and let you know - probably won't be until mid next week.

Dan.

Of course you could always write a letter to NFA Branch for clarification..!!

**********

Thanks for the help.

As for writing for clarification, I might have been born at night, but not LAST night

I know all about people continually writing letters regarding the same thing and getting the ATF determination/opinion changing from a positive ruling to a negative ruling. Writing is the last option.

Thanks, Jack

**********

Okay, I spoke with Gary Schaible yesterday, who is the NFA Branch Program Manager, in an attempt to get some actual references for you. Here is what we came up with:

The NFA is silent on the issue - meaning if it doesn't specifically prohibit it, then it is okay.

Where interstate transfer of firearms is controlled is the Gun Control Act. Specifically Title 27 CFR Chapter II Part 478.147 (Return of Firearms). I don't feel like spelling the whole section out, but any FFL holder should have a copy of the Federal Firearm Regulations Reference Guide and be able to look it up. It should also be available on atf.gov.

Hope that helps.

Dan.

I see you left out the clarification letter which is similar to a variance. Crucial part of the paperwork which if left out would be a problem. Thus the whole reason why I stated your original post was wrong.

[ke6guj]

I see you left out the clarification letter which is similar to a variance. Crucial part of the paperwork which if left out would be a problem. Thus the whole reason why I stated your original post was wrong.

There was nothing wrong in my original post. I stated that out-of-state 07/02 can convert a title I firearm into a title II firearm and return it directly back to the owner. that is correct, as stated in the ATF open letter and the correspondence with NFA staff.

the fact that I did not mention a "clarification letter" about something I looked into 8 years ago, because I forgot about that small detail, does not change the fact that ATF allows it. and that clarification letter is not like having to get permission for a variance.

it is something simple like.

"NFA staff, this Form 4 is to process the return of a customer-supplied firearm back to its orignal owner after modification. A direct Form 4 is allowed in this case.

Thanks,
Joe Blow
07/02SOT"


however, the point of the original post was to show that ATF does allow "remanufactured" firearms to be returned directly to the customer, even when a new manufacturer's name has been added to the firearm. If that was allowed for Title I > Title II re-mans, I don't see why it would also be allowed for re-mans that stay Title I. it was not intended to be a detailed tutorial on how to do out-of-state Form 4 returns.