How to return a rifle?

[RZ Operations]

I have a customer that purchased a stripped serialized AR15 lower/upper in 2013 elsewhere and decided to have someone out of state build the rifle for him so he shipped it to them. The builder/dealer now advised the customer that he needs to ship it back to a FFL and cannot ship it to him...

Customer has requested if the rifle can be shipped to me.

Am I understanding this correctly that if the rifle was shipped to me, the customer would have to fill out a 4473 and dros the rifle even though he did this for the lower a couple years ago? If it needs to be dros again, do I treat it as a transfer where I need to collect sales tax?

Is the builder/dealer incorrect that it must be shipped to a FFL or can they ship the rifle back directly to the customer?

[hermosabeach]

An 07 SOT can return directly to the customer... assuming that it was not an 80% that was turned into a serialized part or now some sort of AW

[acespawnshop]

My understanding is he would have had to ship it to an 07 who turned his ABC manufactured receiver into a new XYZ rifle. It should have the new 07 FFL name on it and should be serialized from what I understand. But I don't have an 07 I have an 02 (pawnbroker) and this is what I was told by my 07 in Arizona when asked if people could send them receivers to work on and built into BB single shot pistols back in the day before that went away.

[RZ Operations]

My understanding is he would have had to ship it to an 07 who turned his ABC manufactured receiver into a new XYZ rifle. It should have the new 07 FFL name on it and should be serialized from what I understand. But I don't have an 07 I have an 02 (pawnbroker) and this is what I was told by my 07 in Arizona when asked if people could send them receivers to work on and built into BB single shot pistols back in the day before that went away.

Let me clarify that this is not an 80% lower receiver. It is a plain jane receiver that he purchased a few years ago and then found an FFL out of state that provides a service on building rifles. Not sure if this changes anything.

[ASD1]

is it a receiver like a "AR" or a was it a "side plate" like a Browning 1919 knock off

[ke6guj]

I think he should be able to send back directly to the owner, but he should probably clarify with aTF on that.

I know some FFLs will let a customer ship them a title I gun with XYZ manufacturer name on it, convert it to a title II gun with ABC manufacturer name now added to it. Once the Form 4 is approved, the gun gets sent back to the owner, no 4473 involved.

it was always the owner's gun, even though there was additonal manufacturing done to it, its still the owner's gun, and should be able to returned directly to him.


edit: here is just one example where that happens, even across state lines.

http://www.trosusa.com/PS90/ps90sbr.htm

[hermosabeach]

If the FFL who received it is an SOT07, then they can ship it directly back to the customer.

If it is a good customer, I would call the FFL to see what the issue is with the rifle..... Was it his dads and dad passed away.. so now the FFL needs to ship to the inheriting son...

[RZ Operations]

is it a receiver like a "AR" or a was it a "side plate" like a Browning 1919 knock off

It is a plain serialized AR15 lower receiver. It is now assembled as a complete rifle. I'm sorry if there is any confusion but to clarify, it was built as a ca legal ar15 with bullet button.

I know people send their guns out for gunsmithing work and receive it shipped back directly to them. Is this any difference besides the fact the he shipped it out of state as a stripped lower and it is now coming back as a complete rifle?

[RZ Operations]

If the FFL who received it is an SOT07, then they can ship it directly back to the customer.

If it is a good customer, I would call the FFL to see what the issue is with the rifle..... Was it his dads and dad passed away.. so now the FFL needs to ship to the inheriting son...

There is no issue with the rifle. The FFL who built the rifle indicates that it needs to be shipped to an FFL.

[ASD1]

It is a plain serialized AR15 lower receiver. It is now assembled as a complete rifle. I'm sorry if there is any confusion but to clarify, it was built as a ca legal ar15 with bullet button.

I know people send their guns out for gunsmithing work and receive it shipped back directly to them. Is this any difference besides the fact the he shipped it out of state as a stripped lower and it is now coming back as a complete rifle?

it "can" be mailed back to the owner by the GS. (they may have a "policy" not to ship back to owner )

if it were to be mailed to you it must be 4473 and DROS back to owner

[audiophil2]

I think he should be able to send back directly to the owner, but he should probably clarify with aTF on that.

I know some FFLs will let a customer ship them a title I gun with XYZ manufacturer name on it, convert it to a title II gun with ABC manufacturer name now added to it. Once the Form 4 is approved, the gun gets sent back to the owner, no 4473 involved.

it was always the owner's gun, even though there was additonal manufacturing done to it, its still the owner's gun, and should be able to returned directly to him.


edit: here is just one example where that happens, even across state lines.
http://www.trosusa.com/PS90/ps90sbr.htm

I doubt that is legal. A form 4 is between 2 parties. Once the title 1 gun is engraved it has to submitted to atf. Then it becomes a completely different gun and must be transfered as a new gun. Who pays the $200 stamp?

[RZ Operations]

it "can" be mailed back to the owner by the GS. (they may have a "policy" not to ship back to owner )

if it were to be mailed to you it must be 4473 and DROS back to owner

What about collecting tax? Does this apply?

[ke6guj]

I doubt that is legal. A form 4 is between 2 parties. Once the title 1 gun is engraved it has to submitted to atf. Then it becomes a completely different gun and must be transfered as a new gun. Who pays the $200 stamp?

I know that TROS has been doing that for years. I assume that they have gone through at least one audit since then and it would have been brought up if not legal.

offically TROS pays for the stamp since the transferor is responsible to pay the tax on a requested Form 4 transfer. yes, we know in practice, that the transforee usually pays the tax, but if the Form 4 is denied or voided, ATF refunds the $200 to the transferor, TROS.

and sometimes that stamp is $5. people send off title I "others" to have made into AOWs.

[kemasa]

The type of FFL does not matter, it is not manufacturing, it is gunsmith work. The firearm was shipped to the FFL by the owner and it can be shipped directly back. If the FFL built up the firearm when they owned the lower, then it would be manufacturing.

The firearm can be shipped directly back. It might be an idea to check to see if the gunsmith FFL would be willing to ship the lower back directly. The upper is not a firearm and can be shipped directly back. I would also suggest that the customer contact the gunsmith FFL and have the FFL ask the BATF, since they should say that it can be shipped directly back. If they don't, then I can get them in contact with a BATF person who is reasonable and knows the laws.

If it goes through you, a FFL, you have to treat it like any other transfer (4473, DROS). You would need a letter stating that it was owned by the customer so that you don't need to collect sales tax.

[kemasa]

My understanding is he would have had to ship it to an 07 who turned his ABC manufactured receiver into a new XYZ rifle. It should have the new 07 FFL name on it and should be serialized from what I understand. But I don't have an 07 I have an 02 (pawnbroker) and this is what I was told by my 07 in Arizona when asked if people could send them receivers to work on and built into BB single shot pistols back in the day before that went away.

Sorry to say that your understanding is incorrect. Since the person owns the lower, it is just gunsmith work, which any normal FFL can do, and it does not have to have the FFL information on it.