Straw Purchase Hypothetical Q?

[Boogaloo]

A gun arrives at my shop, no prior call from the customer, limited info from vendor (not uncommon).

Guy calls the day the gun arrives claiming (identifies himself) to be the person who's name was on the (limited) shipping info that accompanied the gun.

Halfway into the conversation, he changes his claim and states he is actually the brother of the guy who's name is on the (limited) shipping info., but that he is trying to buy the gun as a gift for his brother...

I throw up a "flag on the play" and let the guy know that I am now very weary of this deal and it "feels" a lot like a straw purchase to me, and that I am uncomfortable proceeding with the transaction at this point.

He goes on to inform me that the vendor actually required his brother to make the purchase because THEY smelled a straw purchase as well, so the brother (the guy who's name is on the limited info included with the gun) was required to "purchase" the gun which is why HIS name is on the (limited info).

I ask the guy on the phone why he is calling me, why he is involved at all, and why his brother (the guy who's name is on the limited info) is not the one calling me? He replies that his brother is busy, he works a lot and that he (the guy who's name is on the limited info) asked him to call.

I call boolshat, tell him it doesn't work that way, and I was going to refuse to complete the transfer based on the fact that the guy lied to me right up front (pretending to be his brother), and that he admitted to being warned about straw purchases by the vendor.

The following day, the brother (the guy who's name is on the limited info) calls me up and plays dumb, wants to set up an appointment and basically acts like he knows nothing about the situation. I call boolshat again, and get the guy to admit that he knew his brother called me, and that he was sorry that he had done that...... blah blah blah...

He did say that his name was on the invoice, and that he "would be the one coming to do the transfer, so there should be no problem"... "just a simple misunderstanding".....

At this point it all feels very straw colored to me....

How would you proceed?

[HumedoNino]

If his name is on the invoice and he is filling out the 4473 and following the law doing the background check, I don't see how that is a straw purchase or even anything close

[Maltese Falcon]

Not an FFL, but as long as everything is in order, ID / utility bill address match is tight, and you go by the book, dot the "I"s and cross the "T"s, why not?

What kind of firearm is it?

.

[BONECUTTER]

I follow my gut.....I may call the shipping dealer as it sounds like there is already a story there to help your decision.

Most the time its innocent and the people are just stupid and say all the wrong things.

[j-shot]

Return firearm to vendor...? Both brothers sound to stupid to own a firearm anyway.

[SonofWWIIDI]

First and foremost, protect yourself. (As if I had to say that).

Second, if they call back tell them your policy is to be informed BEFORE any gun is sent to your shop, then tell them it's going back.

I personally prefer to be safe rather than sorry.

BTW, not a an FFL, just a regular Joe voicing my personal opinion.

[gogohopper]

First and foremost, protect yourself. (As if I had to say that).

Second, if they call back tell them your policy is to be informed BEFORE any gun is sent to your shop, then tell them it's going back.

I personally prefer to be safe rather than sorry.

BTW, not a an FFL, just a regular Joe voicing my personal opinion.

Me like ^^^^^

[ugimports]

Based on your description I would refuse the sale at this point. I've had guys call for their brothers, but it wasn't convoluted like you mentioned. Funny (in my situation) that the people that set it up are brothers/friends of LEO (end customer).

[Hateca]

One of the first things ATF tells you is "know your customers". I never receive a firearm unless I know its coming. I do not provide my FFL to a shipper until I talk to the "customer" first. I require the "customers" name to be on the invoice and or the shipping label. If these things are not done the item is returned. That being said if the "customers" info is on the invoice and he can be ID and he does the paperwork this is not a straw purchase by definition. You need to do what you feel comfortable with.

[sonofeugene]

Return firearm to vendor...? Both brothers sound to stupid to own a firearm anyway.

This. Let someone else deal with those clowns. You don't need the hassle or the grief should things go south. And they didn't contact you first anyway. F em.

[ugimports]

One of the first things ATF tells you is "know your customers". I never receive a firearm unless I know its coming. I do not provide my FFL to a shipper until I talk to the "customer" first. I require the "customers" name to be on the invoice and or the shipping label. If these things are not done the item is returned. That being said if the "customers" info is on the invoice and he can be ID and he does the paperwork this is not a straw purchase by definition. You need to do what you feel comfortable with.

Here's the definition of straw purchase in this context:

Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase."

Source: http://www.dontlie.org/straw_purchasing.cfm

[Hateca]

Here's the definition of straw purchase in this context:

Source: http://www.dontlie.org/straw_purchasing.cfm

I know what it is but from the OP's post the "brother" could have just been stupid and asking stupid questions. No one but the OP knows what the entire conversation was about. He needs to make a decision on what he is going to do on his own.

As an FFL if the individual on the invoice does the transfer this is a legal transfer. If the weapon is then given to the brother who can't have the gun this is a straw purchase and the buyer and his brother are guilty. If the dealer thinks this is going to happen he can refuse the sale. If ATF can show the dealer knew this was going to happen and did it anyway then the dealer can be screwed. He needs to make up his own mind based on his conversation with all parties involved.

If it was shipped to me based on how then OP got it, and based on my policy it would be shipped back. But that's just me.

[ugimports]

I know what it is but from the OP's post the "brother" could have just been stupid and asking stupid questions. No one but the OP knows what the entire conversation was about. He needs to make a decision on what he is going to do on his own.

As an FFL if the individual on the invoice does the transfer this is a legal transfer. If the weapon is then given to the brother who can't have the gun this is a straw purchase and the buyer and his brother are guilty. If the dealer thinks this is going to happen he can refuse the sale. If ATF can show the dealer knew this was going to happen and did it anyway then the dealer can be screwed. He needs to make up his own mind based on his conversation with all parties involved.

If it was shipped to me based on how then OP got it, and based on my policy it would be shipped back. But that's just me.

Eligibility of the person not doing the paperwork isn't the only thing. From the link I sent - Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase."

Again, just because person doing paperwork matches invoice doesn't mean != straw purchase.

I do many many transactions where husband pays for gun (is on invoice) and wife does paperwork or vice-versa. I've also done brother transactions. However, the context of my conversation with them is what mattered. They all told me up front what they were doing.

To your point it'll all be up to the context of the conversation the OP had with customers (since we weren't there and likely didn't get a verbatim copy of what was said). In his actual post he said the customers were doing something wacky because the place they purchased from was thinking straw purchase as well.

[Hot Holster]

How did the vendor get your FFL license? Have you done business with them and they have it on file?

In the past, our shop wants to be notified that a gun is coming in UNLESS we have done several transactions with the buyer and have told them it was okay to have guns shipped to us. We have since stopped doing transfers entirely because of problems with shipping deliveries going elsewhere.

In this case it probably isn't a straw purchase but with the wacky story given, I'd return the gun to the place that shipped it and let them know never to send a gun without prior authorization and proper invoicing. I would also contact the buyer and explain that the gun will be going back and if he/they ever want to use your service in the future, make arrangements first.

[Boogaloo]

How did the vendor get your FFL license? Have you done business with them and they have it on file?

Yes, I am on their "preferred" vendor list. Good and bad. Good because I get business that I would otherwise not see... Bad because of deals just like this one

In this case it probably isn't a straw purchase but with the wacky story given, I'd return the gun to the place that shipped it and let them know never to send a gun without prior authorization and proper invoicing. I would also contact the buyer and explain that the gun will be going back and if he/they ever want to use your service in the future, make arrangements first.

The customer was not happy with my position when I told them I was seeking advice from other dealers with more time in the game than I have, so they called the vendor. The vendor then called me, confirmed that they were uncomfortable with the brothers story, apologized to me for the inconvenience and sent a shipping label for me to return the firearm.

The brothers whacky stories, impatience and demanding nature solved the problem for me.... I am just adhering to the vendors request to return the firearm.... End of story.