ATF and CA DOJ Audits

[RZ Operations]

There have been some threads about audits in the past but I was curious about starting one thread to share any audits that FFL's have gone through and what it entails and the experience. Perhaps we can learn from the shared experience and determine what some of the best practices may be.

Also curious to hear from those that are home based and how the audits may differ.

[PolishMike]

It's like having a mechanic do a colonoscopy.

[RZ Operations]

It's like having a mechanic do a colonoscopy.

Do tell....never had a colonoscopy before so I can't relate to the pain

[six seven tango]

It's like having a mechanic do a colonoscopy.

Is that the one where they stick the long metal probe up your tail pipe and call it a "smog check"?

[rbetts]

ATF shows up unannounced, are generally friendly, require lots of photocopies and are out there each day by 4PM. The more you are involved in helping them, the easier it goes and at least for me, the better the outcome.

DOJ. . . . . . .well that's another story

[RZ Operations]

ATF shows up unannounced, are generally friendly, require lots of photocopies and are out there each day by 4PM. The more you are involved in helping them, the easier it goes and at least for me, the better the outcome.

DOJ. . . . . . .well that's another story

Does the ATF make their own photocopies?

What about your experience with the CA DOJ?

[JeffM]

This is such a broad topic that it would help to have a little more clarification regarding what exactly your looking for.

I've been through both ATF and DOJ inspections, and both were handled somewhat differently. All were surprise inspections beginning early in the week and lasting for several days.

The first CA DOJ "inspection" was very adversarial... to the point that I seemed more like a raid associated with a criminal investigation. I was detained by an enforcement agent and my ID was run for wants and warrants after getting off the phone with our attorney. I have his exact words written down somewhere, but they were something like: "you don't need legal representation unless you're doing something wrong." I was then threatened with arrest if I didn't stop videotaping the agents in the retail area of the store (publicly accessible, no expectation of privacy). I'm not sure how much detail I can go into about the events of this incident or the the ultimate outcome of that mess, but the official inspection report reflected only minor administrative errors that were correctable. Shortly afterwards Alison Merrilees was no longer with the DOJ's BOF and things got a bit better for CA FFLs and gun owners with someone seemingly more levelheaded in charge.

The next CA DOJ inspection was much more professional. The inspectors were still accompanied by enforcement agents (law enforcement officers with power of arrest), which I gather is uncommon and happens if the DOJ expects to make arrests or some sort of trouble. The inspection lasted three days but the enforcement agents only stayed for the first day and a half or so.

The first thing they wanted was a printout of the DROS's that were still inside the 10-day waiting period. They matched the serial numbers from the paperwork to the physical guns to make sure that the guns in the 10-day wait were actually physically still being held.

They had a pre-printed list of most (if not all) denials we had (including denials, 30-day rejects, and DMV rejects) and asked us to provide details of the ultimate disposition of those firearms. They were looking for evidence of straw purchases by matching the exact gun from the denial going to someone at the same address or same last name of the denied person.

They poked through all of our available DROS paperwork but did a very detailed inspection of approximately 1 year of DROS paperwork to look for violations such as no Safe Affidavit or CA Approved Lock model listed with the purchase, improper Proof of Residence, missing signatures/thumbprints, etc.

They inspected the physical security measures in place in the business.

They looked at all of the HSC tests to ensure that no answers were marked on the tests themselves.

They were interested in how we were doing our SSE process.

They took a quick look at the AR/AK style rifles sitting on the sales racks checking for Bullet Buttons.

They looked for the signage that is required.

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but it stood out that the inspection was much more professional and less adversarial than the past.

The ATF inspections were similar. They immediately asked for our A&D books. They were computerized so we asked them how they would like it organized, which they seemed to think was helpful. They took a full physical inventory of the firearms on site, then compared their inventory list to our A&D book looking for discrepancies that would indicate that there were guns missing. This is what they seemed mostly concerned with. They also inspected approximately 1 year worth of 4473s looking for administrative errors.

They looked for the required posted signage, etc.

There was nothing adversarial about the ATF's attitude towards the inspection.

Hope that helps.

[Baboosh]

We are home based so our DOJ visits may be a little different.

Agents were nice and courteous, respective that they were in a home. Unlike the FFL above there were no officers with them, just 2 DOJ agents. When we first welcomed them in they did immediately ask who is on the FFL and we answered both my wife and I. They did say if anything illegal is here they will arresting both of us and that shook us up but we understand the warning.

They looked at our SSE and SAE pistols. They got a kick out of how we did the Chiappa Rhinos.

They looked at all paperwork for guns in DROS and then matched the guns in inventory. We had a gun in DROS that did not match any guns on hand but the error was we DROSed the serial off the box and the gun in the box had another serial. It was a rostered pistol so we did not take the pistol from the box. They made a comment about that happening and moved on.

Checked all signage

Checked all HSC test booklets to make sure we didn't circle the answers

Went through DROS forms and informed us of mistakes and asked us to correct them. We were signing safe handling forms on the wrong line.

Found some residency issues and asked us to correct them which we did.

Went through a list of denied DROS and asked for paperwork on the following guns. We had to show were they went.

Besides guns in DROS or DROS paperwork they had no interest in inventory. That morning we got everything out and laid it out for them to inspect but they said thanks but no thanks.

They did not like our safe setup and gave us 30 days to correct it which we did and sent pictures of.

All in all it was a long day but the agents were professional and I realized they had a job to do and it wasn't personal. Our paperwork was organized easily and when they needed something we were able to pull it quick and easy and not having to look all over for it. They seemed to appreciate this. We bought them lunch and ate together and discussed current events and their duties while out in the field and they were done about 4pm. Overall it was a great experience and nothing too over demanding.

What I got from it was if you are legit and doing your absolute best to follow the laws you are good. If you are trying to hide things, cooking the books or doing shady things they will find it. As for honest mistakes they will call you out on it but let you correct them but as an FFL you better love paperwork. However it was our first one with roughly 2k DROS forms and we are home based so it may be different than brick and mortar stores so I'll leave it to the seasoned FFLs here to give their reports.

[RZ Operations]

I wanted to keep it broad as I don't believe every Dealer that has been audited will be exactly the same besides the regular stuff like signage check, etc.

I do appreciate the comprehensive breakdown from your experience.

This is such a broad topic that it would help to have a little more clarification regarding what exactly your looking for.

I've been through both ATF and DOJ inspections, and both were handled somewhat differently. All were surprise inspections beginning early in the week and lasting for several days.

The first CA DOJ "inspection" was very adversarial... to the point that I seemed more like a raid associated with a criminal investigation. I was detained by an enforcement agent and my ID was run for wants and warrants after getting off the phone with our attorney. I have his exact words written down somewhere, but they were something like: "you don't need legal representation unless you're doing something wrong." I was then threatened with arrest if I didn't stop videotaping the agents in the retail area of the store (publicly accessible, no expectation of privacy). I'm not sure how much detail I can go into about the events of this incident or the the ultimate outcome of that mess, but the official inspection report reflected only minor administrative errors that were correctable. Shortly afterwards Alison Merrilees was no longer with the DOJ's BOF and things got a bit better for CA FFLs and gun owners with someone seemingly more levelheaded in charge.

The next CA DOJ inspection was much more professional. The inspectors were still accompanied by enforcement agents (law enforcement officers with power of arrest), which I gather is uncommon and happens if the DOJ expects to make arrests or some sort of trouble. The inspection lasted three days but the enforcement agents only stayed for the first day and a half or so.

The first thing they wanted was a printout of the DROS's that were still inside the 10-day waiting period. They matched the serial numbers from the paperwork to the physical guns to make sure that the guns in the 10-day wait were actually physically still being held.

They had a pre-printed list of most (if not all) denials we had (including denials, 30-day rejects, and DMV rejects) and asked us to provide details of the ultimate disposition of those firearms. They were looking for evidence of straw purchases by matching the exact gun from the denial going to someone at the same address or same last name of the denied person.

They poked through all of our available DROS paperwork but did a very detailed inspection of approximately 1 year of DROS paperwork to look for violations such as no Safe Affidavit or CA Approved Lock model listed with the purchase, improper Proof of Residence, missing signatures/thumbprints, etc.

They inspected the physical security measures in place in the business.

They looked at all of the HSC tests to ensure that no answers were marked on the tests themselves.

They were interested in how we were doing our SSE process.

They took a quick look at the AR/AK style rifles sitting on the sales racks checking for Bullet Buttons.

They looked for the signage that is required.

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but it stood out that the inspection was much more professional and less adversarial than the past.

The ATF inspections were similar. They immediately asked for our A&D books. They were computerized so we asked them how they would like it organized, which they seemed to think was helpful. They took a full physical inventory of the firearms on site, then compared their inventory list to our A&D book looking for discrepancies that would indicate that there were guns missing. This is what they seemed mostly concerned with. They also inspected approximately 1 year worth of 4473s looking for administrative errors.

They looked for the required posted signage, etc.

There was nothing adversarial about the ATF's attitude towards the inspection.

Hope that helps.

[RZ Operations]

We are home based so our DOJ visits may be a little different.

Agents were nice and courteous, respective that they were in a home. Unlike the FFL above there were no officers with them, just 2 DOJ agents. When we first welcomed them in they did immediately ask who is on the FFL and we answered both my wife and I. They did say if anything illegal is here they will arresting both of us and that shook us up but we understand the warning.

They looked at our SSE and SAE pistols. They got a kick out of how we did the Chiappa Rhinos.

They looked at all paperwork for guns in DROS and then matched the guns in inventory. We had a gun in DROS that did not match any guns on hand but the error was we DROSed the serial off the box and the gun in the box had another serial. It was a rostered pistol so we did not take the pistol from the box. They made a comment about that happening and moved on.

Checked all signage

Checked all HSC test booklets to make sure we didn't circle the answers

Went through DROS forms and informed us of mistakes and asked us to correct them. We were signing safe handling forms on the wrong line.

Found some residency issues and asked us to correct them which we did.

Went through a list of denied DROS and asked for paperwork on the following guns. We had to show were they went.

Besides guns in DROS or DROS paperwork they had no interest in inventory. That morning we got everything out and laid it out for them to inspect but they said thanks but no thanks.

They did not like our safe setup and gave us 30 days to correct it which we did and sent pictures of.

All in all it was a long day but the agents were professional and I realized they had a job to do and it wasn't personal. Our paperwork was organized easily and when they needed something we were able to pull it quick and easy and not having to look all over for it. They seemed to appreciate this. We bought them lunch and ate together and discussed current events and their duties while out in the field and they were done about 4pm. Overall it was a great experience and nothing too over demanding.

What I got from it was if you are legit and doing your absolute best to follow the laws you are good. If you are trying to hide things, cooking the books or doing shady things they will find it. As for honest mistakes they will call you out on it but let you correct them but as an FFL you better love paperwork. However it was our first one with roughly 2k DROS forms and we are home based so it may be different than brick and mortar stores so I'll leave it to the seasoned FFLs here to give their reports.

Thanks for sharing. Did they show up unannounced since you are home based? Or did they make an appointment?

[Tyke8319]

I am home based as well though I have a separate store front building on the property dedicated to retail sales. Both home and store share the same address.

I tend to believe that audits, by either DOJ or ATF, are determined based on the amount of annual sales of firearms. My reasoning is that I am small and that's an understatement. I sell a small number of firearms to local, rural customers and misc. PPT as well as transfers for fund raising events.

In 12 years I have had two DOJ audits; the first was shortly after one year in the business and out of 12 transfers I had failed to get one customers signature on the DROS form...my bad. I was given a "letter of warning" and sternly told that the next violation (ever) would result in a hearing in S.F. Any violation after that would be a revocation of my state licensing...!

ATF has audited once! About two years ago. She was a very pleasant person; very informative. No problems. She even offered to come and get my 4473's if and when I ever decided to close shop and gave me her personal office number should I ever have any questions...BTW, all the DUBLIN & S.F. numbers appear to have been changed and I can't find her card.

On both occasions I was sent letters by the respective agencies advising of an upcoming audit. Needless to say, that was most helpful as if gave me time to make sure all my ducks were in a row, so to speak.

BTW, the NSSF has put out a brochure, "How to Pass An Audit" should anyone be interested.

[rbetts]

Does the ATF make their own photocopies?

What about your experience with the CA DOJ?

They use your paper and machine.

[Burbur]

Thank you guys for the detailed accounts.

We are nearing our first FFL renewal and still haven't seen an auditor. Kind of like a boogeyman that you hear is horrible and will visit you one day.

I have a friend who is nearly 13 years without a CA DOJ audit and 7 since ATF did more than a courtesy stop. Is this normal?

[RZ Operations]

I am home based as well though I have a separate store front building on the property dedicated to retail sales. Both home and store share the same address.

I tend to believe that audits, by either DOJ or ATF, are determined based on the amount of annual sales of firearms. My reasoning is that I am small and that's an understatement. I sell a small number of firearms to local, rural customers and misc. PPT as well as transfers for fund raising events.

In 12 years I have had two DOJ audits; the first was shortly after one year in the business and out of 12 transfers I had failed to get one customers signature on the DROS form...my bad. I was given a "letter of warning" and sternly told that the next violation (ever) would result in a hearing in S.F. Any violation after that would be a revocation of my state licensing...!

ATF has audited once! About two years ago. She was a very pleasant person; very informative. No problems. She even offered to come and get my 4473's if and when I ever decided to close shop and gave me her personal office number should I ever have any questions...BTW, all the DUBLIN & S.F. numbers appear to have been changed and I can't find her card.

On both occasions I was sent letters by the respective agencies advising of an upcoming audit. Needless to say, that was most helpful as if gave me time to make sure all my ducks were in a row, so to speak.

BTW, the NSSF has put out a brochure, "How to Pass An Audit" should anyone be interested.

Thanks for sharing. When you were sent letters about the upcoming renewal, did it have a date or did you call you to make an appointment?

[Spyder]

For you FFL's that have been around a while, how frequently do you get audited? There's a local shop here that FREQUENTLY spews out bad information and, without fail, tells me and several other customers "Well, we just had an ATF audit two weeks ago and they said ________". Or Well, we just had a DOJ audit last week and they said ______".

They've told me this at least fifteen times in the last year, and I've heard them tell several other people the same, several times. Every single time they do it, the information is completely false, with no basis in reality. Everything from certain types of ammo being illegal, to bullet button nonsense, to LEO needing a letter from their chief approving off-roster purchases even if the 10 day wait is not being waived, to "Desert Eagles in 50ae are illegal and can't be sold to LE like regular off roster guns because the DOJ said so". Typical gunstore FUD, but they have got to be the most audited shop in the history of ever, or they are simply lying to me and everyone else.

Other than that, it's a great shop...but it's aggravating to be lied to every time you walk in the door, and I'm just curious if my belief that they do not get 15-20 audits per year is true, as I'm sure it is.