Pistol Frame to Complete Pistol

[PolishMike]

Can you find the PC that states pistol "frames" are considered pistols in regards to the roster? I have contrary info from the DOJ about being able to DROS frames, but of course I understand I can take that with a grain of salt.

Do you have something in writing?

PM me

[Baboosh]

Can you find the PC that states pistol "frames" are considered pistols in regards to the roster? I have contrary info from the DOJ about being able to DROS frames, but of course I understand I can take that with a grain of salt.

We can DROS frames, but how are they DROSed? PPT? Yes. Dealer sale? No.

If you have something in writing I would love to see it and go over it.

Also do you have info from the DOJ or the DES Help Desk? I got an email response from a ticket and it was full of bad info.

[Baboosh]

I do not see anywhere on the DES system under Dealer Sale to put an option for a frame only

[ugimports]

I do not see anywhere on the DES system under Dealer Sale to put an option for a frame only

Oh snap - they must have removed it recently -- maybe when they redid the regs in March...used to be there....well there goes that..

it does happen to still show for exempt though - so all is not lost..

[Baboosh]

Oh snap - they must have removed it recently -- maybe when they redid the regs in March...used to be there....well there goes that..

it does happen to still show for exempt though - so all is not lost..

It has always showed for Exempt but I do not ever remember seeing it on the Dealer Sale portion.

I think I have old screenshots let me look through them

[JeffM]

CA Penal Code 31910 defines "unsafe handgun":

As used in this part, "unsafe handgun" means any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, for which any of the following is true:
(a) For a revolver:
(1) It does not have a safety device that, either automatically in
the case of a double-action firing mechanism, or by manual operation
in the case of a single-action firing mechanism, causes the hammer
to retract to a point where the firing pin does not rest upon the
primer of the cartridge.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns.
(b) For a pistol:
(1) It does not have a positive manually operated safety device,
as determined by standards relating to imported guns promulgated by
the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns.
(4) Commencing January 1, 2006, for a center fire semiautomatic
pistol that is not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
32015, it does not have either a chamber load indicator, or a
magazine disconnect mechanism.
(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center fire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
32015, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has
a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
32015, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a
detachable magazine.
(7) (A) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols
that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 32015,
it is not designed and equipped with a microscopic array of
characters that identify the make, model, and serial number of the
pistol, etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on the
interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that
are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm
is fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the
technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one
manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions.
(B) The Attorney General may also approve a method of equal or
greater reliability and effectiveness in identifying the specific
serial number of a firearm from spent cartridge casings discharged by
that firearm than that which is set forth in this paragraph, to be
thereafter required as otherwise set forth by this paragraph where
the Attorney General certifies that this new method is also
unencumbered by any patent restrictions. Approval by the Attorney
General shall include notice of that fact via regulations adopted by
the Attorney General for purposes of implementing that method for
purposes of this paragraph.
(C) The microscopic array of characters required by this section
shall not be considered the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's
number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing
number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, within the
meaning of Sections 23900 and 23920.

So the question is this: Does the bare frame that can be built as a handgun fall within the "any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" definition above?

PC 16520 defines the term "firearm" and includes the frame or receiver in several sections. It does NOT include PC 31910.

(a) As used in this part, "firearm" means a device, designed
to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a
projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion.
(b) As used in the following provisions, "firearm" includes the
frame or receiver of the weapon:
(1) Section 16550.
(2) Section 16730.
(3) Section 16960.
(4) Section 16990.
(5) Section 17070.
(6) Section 17310.
(7) Sections 26500 to 26588, inclusive.
(8) Sections 26600 to 27140, inclusive.
(9) Sections 27400 to 28000, inclusive.
(10) Section 28100.
(11) Sections 28400 to 28415, inclusive.
(12) Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive.
(13) Sections 29610 to 29750, inclusive.
(14) Sections 29800 to 29905, inclusive.
(15) Sections 30150 to 30165, inclusive.
(16) Section 31615.
(17) Sections 31705 to 31830, inclusive.
(18) Sections 34355 to 34370, inclusive.
(19) Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code.
(c) As used in the following provisions, "firearm" also includes a
rocket, rocket propelled projectile launcher, or similar device
containing an explosive or incendiary material, whether or not the
device is designed for emergency or distress signaling purposes:
(1) Section 16750.
(2) Subdivision (b) of Section 16840.
(3) Section 25400.
(4) Sections 25850 to 26025, inclusive.
(5) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) of Section 26030.
(6) Sections 26035 to 26055, inclusive.
(d) As used in the following provisions, "firearm" does not
include an unloaded antique firearm:
(1) Subdivisions (a) and (c) of Section 16730.
(2) Section 16550.
(3) Section 16960.
(4) Section 17310.
(5) Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of Division 5 of
Title 4.
(6) Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 26400) of Division 5 of
Title 4.
(7) Sections 26500 to 26588, inclusive.
(8) Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
(9) Section 27510.
(10) Section 27530.
(11) Section 27540.
(12) Section 27545.
(13) Sections 27555 to 27585, inclusive.
(14) Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive.
(15) Section 25135.
(e) As used in Sections 34005 and 34010, "firearm" does not
include a destructive device.
(f) As used in Sections 17280 and 24680, "firearm" has the same
meaning as in Section 922 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(g) As used in Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive, "firearm"
includes the unfinished frame or receiver of a weapon that can be
readily converted to the functional condition of a finished frame or
receiver.

PC 16530 further defines the terms "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver":

(a) As used in this part, the terms "firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver" apply to
and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is
expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form
of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or
more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel
less than 16 inches in length.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," or "revolver" from
also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled
shotgun.

Because the definitions quoted above require the firearm to be operational, including a barrel, it appears as though the sale of handgun frames are not restricted by the roster. There are probably several days worth of reading that I (or an actual attorney, which I am not) would have to do to delve deeper to find where all the rabbit-holes dead-end. It would not surprise me one bit that my 10 minutes on Google were insufficient for this purpose. But it gives me hope, at a cursory glance, that frames can be DROSed as handguns successfully.

[ugimports]

Thanks for the research. So far this is why I had hope too when the SHD requirement went away as it appeared to mu non lawyer eyes that eas the bigger impedement. Both PolishMike and Baboosh are helping do some additional research as well with more people resources they have.

[ke6guj]

this is the old NeRF (non rostered frame) concept that Gene had back in the day. I believe they sidelined the project because they felt that Pena would have been successful in the near future.

[Baboosh]

So if we DROSed a frame we would have to choose Exempt Handgun Sale but what exemption would we list? We would still have to select a category.

[ugimports]

So if we DROSed a frame we would have to choose Exempt Handgun Sale but what exemption would we list? We would still have to select a category.

I would probably choose single shot since that's how it would need to be assembled to not run afoul of roster (IMO).

[Silverone858]

Hey guys I have been watching to see if anything has come out of this, I had been following this for awhile but it has been a few months since I have seen this move and with the new spectre glock frames out now I have renewed interest building a decent 1911. There is a viable option to make a SSE2 bolt action upper from limited 10 and as far as I know we can still buy AR lowers marked pistol. Has anyone tried to dros a serialized 1911 frame? (other than ppt or exempt)