Question on sin

[bountyhunter]

First of all, my background is that from a rigid, law based religion.
Recently in a discussion, re sin, a comment was made that the Law defines sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law. Paul says that the Law points out sin.
Someone replied that there are other principles over and above the Law that define sin. So, there are sins that are not in the Bible because they "violate" Biblical principles. Then the person says that what is a sin to one may not be a sin to another.
If that is the case, then how is one judged? Does that mean there is no standard?

The Christian concept is that every single person sins. Period. You are forgiven and saved through grace which is to say, Christ forgives your sins if you ask Him. Christ also admonished people repeatedly not to try to "judge" the sins of others so the question asked above is irrelevant (we have no reason to try to define sin). People can not weigh or judge sin, they can just try to avoid them and ask to be forgiven for them.

[colossians323]

The Christian concept is that every single person sins. Period. You are forgiven and saved through grace which is to say, Christ forgives your sins if you ask Him. Christ also admonished people repeatedly not to try to "judge" the sins of others so the question asked above is irrelevant (we have no reason to try to define sin). People can not weigh or judge sin, they can just try to avoid them and ask to be forgiven for them.

Au contraire, we are called to judge sin and not the sinner. If we will not judge sin how can we parent our children, be a mentor or discipler of people.

Listen to the words of Paul admonishing Peter and the other Jews for sins they were committing.

Galatians 2:11-2111 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

[Sailormilan2]

Wow... lots of good information in this thread! Question to Sailormilan2 - has your question been answered sufficiently?

Actually, NotaCook, I am learning a lot here. Unfortunately, much of this goes against what I was taught, but I agree with what I am reading here.
Especially the parts that all sins are not equal. I noticed that when reading the Law. There were sins that required immediate death, those that said to just do a sacrifice, and those that were only described as sins.
I was raised the notion, which I do not agree to, that one must ask forgiveness to each and every sin that one has committed, and if one cannot remember them, one must pray to have God help us to remember, so that we can confess them. I feel that is very untrue, and seems to run counter to places in the Bible where God says our sins are already gone. Even David, when God had forgiven him, before he ask for forgiveness, and no where does it say that David did a sacrifice as was required.................just God forgave him.

Careful with that. Technically the 10 Commandments (or 10 Words) were given to the Israelites, not to everybody else. They were just the beginning of an entire set of laws and codes by which Old Testament Israel was to live as the chosen people of God in the only true theocracy.

There are 3 uses of the Law, as a curb to help keep men in check; as a mirror to show us our sin; and as a guide. But, with that in mind, also understand that the Law doesn't save, it only condemns us. Nobody is saved by the law. IT is by the Gospel that we are saved. Properly distinguishing between the 2 is crucial to understanding the Christian faith.

I would say to be very careful with this, since Paul says we are grafted into the tree. If we are grafted into the "Tree", do not the same rules that govern the tree then govern us?

An example would be tithe. I find very few examples for tithing in the NT. Most are in the OT, where the Law is. I read one article that in the author's opinion, tithing was for the Jews, since it was only discussed in the OT. Yet I am sure if anyone went into a church and said not to tithe the church leaders would have a stroke. I am not saying I agree with this, but pointing out what could happen if OT "rules" are tossed.

[Not a Cook]

Actually, NotaCook, I am learning a lot here. Unfortunately, much of this goes against what I was taught, but I agree with what I am reading here.

Thanks for getting back to me and letting me know! I'm glad to know that the Lord is using this forum in some small way to help you (and hopefully others here) learn more about Him and the Scriptures.

Especially the parts that all sins are not equal. I noticed that when reading the Law. There were sins that required immediate death, those that said to just do a sacrifice, and those that were only described as sins.

Great observation - many folks today miss that obvious point.

I was raised the notion, which I do not agree to, that one must ask forgiveness to each and every sin that one has committed, and if one cannot remember them, one must pray to have God help us to remember, so that we can confess them. I feel that is very untrue, and seems to run counter to places in the Bible where God says our sins are already gone.

I'll encourage you with this: if you are in Christ, then all your sins are forgiven. The slate is wiped clean. I'm reminded of Psalm 103:12 (NKJV):
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
I'm also reminded of the colloquial saying that goes something like "God has cast all the sins of His saints into the deepest part of the sea, and then He put up a 'No Fishing' sign so that no one can ever bring them back up". That saying isn't found in the Scriptures, but the idea is based on God's promise found Micah 7:19.

That said, we are still commanded to confess our sins. I strongly suggest studying the book of 1 John to learn more about this. I'll quote a small part here for your consideration, 1 John 1:5-2:6 (NKJV)
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Please note that it's not unlike any personal relationship. We confess our sins to God because we've wronged Him, and we need to admit that and ask for His forgiveness if we want to be right with Him.

It's also worth noting that the first part of James 5:16 (NKJV) says,
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
I won't add much commentary on that, except please note that this is regarding healing, NOT being forgiven by God.

Even David, when God had forgiven him, before he ask for forgiveness, and no where does it say that David did a sacrifice as was required.................just God forgave him.

Folks in the "Old Testament times" were saved by believing God (please note that I did NOT say "believing in" God), just as we are saved today. By faith they believed God and they looked forward to the promised Messiah through whom the Father promised to save them; similarly, today we look backward in faith to the Messiah whom God sent to become the propitiation for our sins.

If you haven't studied it before, I think you'd find what the Lord said in John 3:14-15 interesting in light of what we read in Deuteronomy 8 regarding the bronze serpent. The faithful Israelites of that day trusted God by believing Him - after they had been bitten and knew they were facing certain death, those folks believe God and obeyed Him by looking up to the bronze serpent as He had commanded. This is a picture of how we're saved by grace through faith in Christ even today.

That said, I'd caution you against making too much doctrine out of what happened with King David. As discussed in another thread here, God does not forgive sin without a blood sacrifice - His law demands it. Those saints from the "Old Testament" days are covered by the same blood sacrifice as those of us who are saints today - the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross at Calvary. King David trusted God and looked forward to the coming Messiah who God had promised. That said, he still obeyed God and offered animal sacrifice. Why do I say that? Check out Psalm 51, his recorded prayer of confession and asking God to cleanse him. Notice that in verse 7 David asked God to "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean..." If you're very familiar with the Mosaic law, you'll remember that hyssop is used in the blood sacrifices. I don't know when David offered that blood sacrifice that Psalm 51:7 alludes to, but I am confident that he did in order to obey God, all the while trusting in the ultimate sacrifice whom God would provide.

I would say to be very careful with this, since Paul says we are grafted into the tree. If we are grafted into the "Tree", do not the same rules that govern the tree then govern us?

An example would be tithe. I find very few examples for tithing in the NT. Most are in the OT, where the Law is. I read one article that in the author's opinion, tithing was for the Jews, since it was only discussed in the OT. Yet I am sure if anyone went into a church and said not to tithe the church leaders would have a stroke. I am not saying I agree with this, but pointing out what could happen if OT "rules" are tossed.

You're correct that we who are in Christ are grafted into Israel, and we obviously have much to learn from the "Old Testament". Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV) records that Christ Himself said,
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Christ has fulfilled the law, and His righteousness is credited to our account by God's grace. However, we must still be mindful of the law. That said, not all of the law was intended for us today. Some of the laws given to the Israelites were civil law - they were literally the laws of the nation of Israel. Those civil laws were uniquely intended for that nation-state. Among them is one of the tithes (remember that there are several tithes that were commanded to Israel). However, Christ "raised the bar" on the Mosaic law (ref. Matthew 5), and so a tithe would seem to be a "good starting point" for the person who is serious about following Christ.

May the Lord continue to bless you as you search the Scriptures for yourself!

[Godskid2]

I believe sin has to be viewed from God's perspective not man's: "one man's sin may not be another man's sin." As said sin is missing the mark, and "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus..." Rom 3:23.
For this reason my focus is on abiding in Christ (John 15:4-10).

[hasserl]

The Christian concept is that every single person sins. Period. You are forgiven and saved through grace which is to say, Christ forgives your sins if you ask Him. Christ also admonished people repeatedly not to try to "judge" the sins of others so the question asked above is irrelevant (we have no reason to try to define sin). People can not weigh or judge sin, they can just try to avoid them and ask to be forgiven for them.

Au contraire, we are called to judge sin and not the sinner. If we will not judge sin how can we parent our children, be a mentor or discipler of people.

Listen to the words of Paul admonishing Peter and the other Jews for sins they were committing.

And Paul admonished the Corinthiam congregation for not addressing a man that was sleeping with his fathers wife: 1 Corinthians 5

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%205

[hasserl]

Actually, NotaCook, I am learning a lot here. Unfortunately, much of this goes against what I was taught, but I agree with what I am reading here.
Especially the parts that all sins are not equal. I noticed that when reading the Law. There were sins that required immediate death, those that said to just do a sacrifice, and those that were only described as sins.
I was raised the notion, which I do not agree to, that one must ask forgiveness to each and every sin that one has committed, and if one cannot remember them, one must pray to have God help us to remember, so that we can confess them. I feel that is very untrue, and seems to run counter to places in the Bible where God says our sins are already gone. Even David, when God had forgiven him, before he ask for forgiveness, and no where does it say that David did a sacrifice as was required.................just God forgave him.

Don't confuse the temporal (OT punishment for sins) with the eternal. There is really only 1 sentence for sin, damnation, i.e. eternal separation from God.

I would say to be very careful with this, since Paul says we are grafted into the tree. If we are grafted into the "Tree", do not the same rules that govern the tree then govern us?

An example would be tithe. I find very few examples for tithing in the NT. Most are in the OT, where the Law is. I read one article that in the author's opinion, tithing was for the Jews, since it was only discussed in the OT. Yet I am sure if anyone went into a church and said not to tithe the church leaders would have a stroke. I am not saying I agree with this, but pointing out what could happen if OT "rules" are tossed.

No, when Christ died on the cross his last words were "it is finished", and with that the entire OT covenant was fulfilled, including the Law. We now live in Christian freedom, as children of God, in a way that is pleasing to our Father in heaven, because we can, not because we have to. And when we fail, and we will, we rest assured of his forgiveness on account of Christ's death and resurrection. And we frequent his house to hear those words of forgiveness spoken to us through our pastors, and we receive the Sacrament of the Altar that carries with it forgiveness and we pray that the Lord keep us steadfast in the faith. We are not justified by following the law. Our sin is not held above our heads unless we itemize and repent of each and every one. We are forgiven, and we live that way.

We don't tithe, we give back freely of the things that God has given to us. Christians do not tithe, period. If I went to a church and the pastor told us that we had to tithe that would be a huge red flag that he does not understand the faith and I would run as fast as I could from there.

[eb47]

I tithe and also teach my kids to always give a tithe as well, our first fruits. What I give beyond that, is my offering. People are always quick to receive a financial benefit but seem to cramp up when it's time to worship God with a monetary gift. We preach for people to go into all nations preaching the Gospel but do not equip them to do it. Money is necessary no matter how you look at it.

[hasserl]

Well, IMO words have meanings, and the word "Tithe" has a specific meaning not in keeping with New Testament, and Reformation theology.

Maybe this would be a good topic for another thread, because a lot of people that have already checked out of this thread won't be looking, and won't have input on it here.

[Doheny]

Well, IMO words have meanings, and the word "Tithe" has a specific meaning not in keeping with New Testament, and Reformation theology.

Maybe this would be a good topic for another thread, because a lot of people that have already checked out of this thread won't be looking, and won't have input on it here.

Let's hear your interpretation of tithe, because it seems to be different than many of ours.

[hasserl]

Check the thread I started. Please join in.

[Scooooter7]

Well, IMO words have meanings, and the word "Tithe" has a specific meaning not in keeping with New Testament, and Reformation theology.

Maybe this would be a good topic for another thread, because a lot of people that have already checked out of this thread won't be looking, and won't have input on it here.

And maybe a new topic on What is "Reformation Theology:?

[hasserl]

And maybe a new topic on What is "Reformation Theology:?

Good idea, thanks

[Scooooter7]

Excerpt from my church COD website. http://www.churchoftheopendoor.com/a...rnal-life.html


What About Eternal Life?
That's the most important question you will ever ask. The answer can be given in 4 simple truths:

1 Remember God loves you!

The Gospel of John in the Bible says, For God so loved the world...(John 3:16). You are part of that world. He loves you and wants to give you eternal life. But there is a problem...

2 Recognize your need

Sin separates us from God. The word sin in the Bible means to miss the mark. Romans 3:23 says we have all missed the mark: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We have broken God's law and thus there is a sin problem between us and God. God's law declares that the penalty of sin is death--eternal separation from God in a place called hell. All of us sinners have earned this death sentence, For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). You cannot escape this sentence on your own...

3 Realize Christ has met this need

But there is good news, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, paid the full penalty for sin on the Cross. Remember, God loves you. Romans 5:8 tells us, But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. His death satisfied the penalty for sin--He paid in full the price for sin. His resurrection guarantees eternal life. In John 11:25 Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live. Now the decision is up to you...

4 Rely on Christ for salvation

God asks you to trust in Christ alone as your only way to heaven. In one of the simplest verses of the Bible, Jesus Christ says, Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life (John 6:47). The word believe means to trust in, rely on, or depend on. The moment you believe in Him you have eternal life. That's all God requires for you to have eternal life. So that leaves one question...

Do you believe?

Have you relied on Christ for salvation or have you been trying to get to heaven by your own ability?

If you have not trusted Christ to get you to heaven, why not do it now?

Providing you eternal life cost God everything? He punished His Son in your place, but receiving eternal life costs you nothing. Because of what Christ did on the Cross, God now offers you this free gift if you will simply trust His Son to save you.
You might like to express your faith to God like this:

Dear God, I come to You now. I know I am a sinner. Nothing I will ever do can get me to heaven. But I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins. Right now, I put my trust in Him alone as my only way to heaven. Thank You for the free gift of eternal life. In Jesus' name, Amen.

What happens now?

If you have trusted Christ, you have eternal life. God guarantees it in His Word:

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
-1 John 5:11-13