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  • #16
    ArmedJackal
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 2406

    Originally posted by furyous68
    OK... lurking on this thread but had to clear a couple things up here.

    1. Pretty close. The number of those with a heavenly future is correct. The timing of Armegeddon doesn't so much have to do with those "spaces" being filled up (as we believe they have already been chosen), as it does with God's timing.

    2. Yes, but not in the traditional sense. We do believe there is a spirit realm (heaven), but that "hell" is simply the grave... not a fiery place of eternal torment.

    3. Because we believe in a resurrection hope, the "billions of Chinese born before Christ" would have a resurrection hope. The bible speaks of 2 resurrections. One of the righteous (those that knew of & put their faith in god & Christ and kept it until death), and one of the unrighteous (those who didn't, like the Chinese ).

    4. True. There are many reasons why we don't. I can get into that more specifically if anyone wants to know. Not trying to write a novel here.

    5. True, but that doesn't mean that we don't value women. They make up the majority of our ministry "workforce" (for lack of a better word). They are truly at the forefront of our preaching & teaching work.

    6. This sounds about right.

    7. Yes, but see my my statement for 5. We value our wives. While we do hold to the traditional family head structure where the husband is the "head of the household", that doesn't mean we can be tyrants & domineering. I personally value my wife's input, and trust her to handle a lot of the day to day family stuff. But the overall responsibility for the family falls on my shoulders. We are encouraged to discuss with our wives our options when a major decision needs to be made, and consider their thoughts on the matter. Ultimately though... for better or worse, the decision is the husbands.

    8. Wrong. The reason our Kingdom Halls are "small" (read simple) is because of several reasons. Cost being one. A lot of people think it's wierd that they don't have windows. This, too, is a cost feature. Commercial buildings don't require natural light... though that my be changing as energy guidelines become more stringent & use of natural light is favored in the code. Windows can be expensive. Plus, it's better security (fewer points of entry) and less maintenance. Another reason they are simple is that we don't feel the need to have a large, opulent places of worship. The focus is on our ministry... not where we worship. Also, we don't build them in one day. We used to be able to build them over a weekend. But as the building codes have become more complicated & in depth, we usually get it done within a week or two. We use all volunteer, skilled labor, and work closely with the local building officials to make it as smooth an operation as possible so that we can move as quickly as possible.

    9. Completely false on the first part. We believe with our entire heart that Jesus Christ was the son of God. We do not believe that in the Trinity because the trinity is not taught in the bible. If he is God's son... how are they the same person... which is what the trinity teaching essentially says.

    Hope I cleared up a couple things for you.

    As for some of the other comments, we don't ban the ownership of weapons among our members. I own them, I know several in my area that own them. It is a personal decision. That said, we do hold the sanctity of life in high regard. That includes a criminal's as well as our own. While we are not pacifists, we do believe everything should be done possible to avoid situations that put us into any situation where we might have to harm someone. If we can't avoid it, we are not condemned for protecting ourselves. Which is pretty much common sense.

    As for questioning the Watchtower Society, we are actively encouraged to do our own bible research. We don't blindly follow the teachings. Granted, some may, but we are strongly encouraged to prove to ourselves whether or not the teachings are true. Nobody is holding a gun to our head. We don't force people to stay in the congregation against their will.
    That was illuminating. Thanks for sharing it. My wife's brother is JW. It is frustrating that they never come to the family gatherings for holidays.
    Next up: mossberg 930 spx
    Benelli m2 tac is here! Action is like butta.
    Comfortech is here!

    Comment

    • #17
      Untamed1972
      I need a LIFE!!
      • Mar 2009
      • 17579

      Originally posted by furyous68
      OK... lurking on this thread but had to clear a couple things up here.

      1. Pretty close. The number of those with a heavenly future is correct. The timing of Armegeddon doesn't so much have to do with those "spaces" being filled up (as we believe they have already been chosen), as it does with God's timing.

      2. Yes, but not in the traditional sense. We do believe there is a spirit realm (heaven), but that "hell" is simply the grave... not a fiery place of eternal torment.

      3. Because we believe in a resurrection hope, the "billions of Chinese born before Christ" would have a resurrection hope. The bible speaks of 2 resurrections. One of the righteous (those that knew of & put their faith in god & Christ and kept it until death), and one of the unrighteous (those who didn't, like the Chinese ).

      4. True. There are many reasons why we don't. I can get into that more specifically if anyone wants to know. Not trying to write a novel here.

      5. True, but that doesn't mean that we don't value women. They make up the majority of our ministry "workforce" (for lack of a better word). They are truly at the forefront of our preaching & teaching work.

      6. This sounds about right.

      7. Yes, but see my my statement for 5. We value our wives. While we do hold to the traditional family head structure where the husband is the "head of the household", that doesn't mean we can be tyrants & domineering. I personally value my wife's input, and trust her to handle a lot of the day to day family stuff. But the overall responsibility for the family falls on my shoulders. We are encouraged to discuss with our wives our options when a major decision needs to be made, and consider their thoughts on the matter. Ultimately though... for better or worse, the decision is the husbands.

      8. Wrong. The reason our Kingdom Halls are "small" (read simple) is because of several reasons. Cost being one. A lot of people think it's wierd that they don't have windows. This, too, is a cost feature. Commercial buildings don't require natural light... though that my be changing as energy guidelines become more stringent & use of natural light is favored in the code. Windows can be expensive. Plus, it's better security (fewer points of entry) and less maintenance. Another reason they are simple is that we don't feel the need to have a large, opulent places of worship. The focus is on our ministry... not where we worship. Also, we don't build them in one day. We used to be able to build them over a weekend. But as the building codes have become more complicated & in depth, we usually get it done within a week or two. We use all volunteer, skilled labor, and work closely with the local building officials to make it as smooth an operation as possible so that we can move as quickly as possible.

      9. Completely false on the first part. We believe with our entire heart that Jesus Christ was the son of God. We do not believe that in the Trinity because the trinity is not taught in the bible. If he is God's son... how are they the same person... which is what the trinity teaching essentially says.

      Hope I cleared up a couple things for you.

      As for some of the other comments, we don't ban the ownership of weapons among our members. I own them, I know several in my area that own them. It is a personal decision. That said, we do hold the sanctity of life in high regard. That includes a criminal's as well as our own. While we are not pacifists, we do believe everything should be done possible to avoid situations that put us into any situation where we might have to harm someone. If we can't avoid it, we are not condemned for protecting ourselves. Which is pretty much common sense.

      As for questioning the Watchtower Society, we are actively encouraged to do our own bible research. We don't blindly follow the teachings. Granted, some may, but we are strongly encouraged to prove to ourselves whether or not the teachings are true. Nobody is holding a gun to our head. We don't force people to stay in the congregation against their will.
      Just so long as you're not actually reading or studying anything that wasn't written by the Watchtower society. Not really sure how that's supposed to work?

      Force them to stay? No. Coerce them by means of threats and manipulation. Absolutely!

      And what would your elders think of you being a member on a Gun Forum?
      Last edited by Untamed1972; 08-01-2014, 3:54 PM.
      "Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

      Quote for the day:
      "..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun

      Comment

      • #18
        border.bandito
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 770

        regardless of what their beliefs entail, i have to give credit were credit is due;
        JW's go door to door and pound the pavement hardcore (sharing their beliefs).


        as a person of Biblical Christian faith, I dont necessarily agree with their beliefs, but i gotta give it to them for sharing their faith in such a manner. The Bible says that it is our duty to share our faith with others and spread the Good News, heck that was one of Jesus's clear commandments....but in this day and age, most Christians are somewhat scared or shy to share their beliefs or tell others about Christ (at times myself included).
        so regardless of the difference in beliefs, JW's (as a whole) are definitely doing more than most of us (people of Biblical Christian faith) are doing.
        Last edited by border.bandito; 08-01-2014, 4:02 PM.
        If you suck with irons you will suck with optics. The difference is the aimpoint will allow you to suck faster and a scope will give you a closer look at how much you suck.
        AR's have finally become full blown "men's barbie dolls" now with fashion accessories.

        Comment

        • #19
          uxo2
          Veteran Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 4003

          Originally posted by gdr_11
          I was misinterpreting.
          No you didnt.

          141 Rules. Things Jehovah's Witnesses Can't Do.

          Look it up
          Last edited by uxo2; 08-01-2014, 4:02 PM.
          Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
          Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.
          One died for your soul; the other for your freedom.
          George Patton

          Comment

          • #20
            Untamed1972
            I need a LIFE!!
            • Mar 2009
            • 17579

            Originally posted by border.bandito
            regardless of what their beliefs entail, i have to give credit were credit is due;
            JW's go door to door and pound the pavement hardcore (sharing their beliefs).


            as a person of Biblical Christian faith, I dont necessarily agree with their beliefs, but i gotta give it to them for sharing their faith in such a manner. The Bible says that it is our duty to share our faith with others and spread the Good News, heck that was one of Jesus's clear commandments....but in this day and age, most Christians are somewhat scared or shy to share their beliefs or tell others about Christ (at times myself included).
            so regardless of the difference in beliefs, JW's (as a whole) are definitely doing more than most of us (people of Biblical Christian faith) are doing.
            Jesus also ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. JWs wont associate with anyone but other JWs. Kinda hard to respect the position of someone who doesn't want to have anything to do with you unless you agree to be one of them first.
            "Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

            Quote for the day:
            "..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun

            Comment

            • #21
              furyous68
              Senior Member
              • May 2010
              • 1878

              Originally posted by Untamed1972
              Just so long as you're not actually reading or studying anything that wasn't written by the Watchtower society. Not really sure how that's supposed to work?

              Force them to stay? No. Coerce them by means of threats and manipulation. Absolutely!

              And what would your elders think of you being a member on a Gun Forum?
              Again... not true. Our own literature often quotes outside sources of information when it comes to theological discussion, so why would we be banned from doing the same research? And as far as being on a gun forum, we are not policed, and the elders do not control our lives.
              95,000,000 people die each day in the U.S. from gun violence

              Comment

              • #22
                Untamed1972
                I need a LIFE!!
                • Mar 2009
                • 17579

                Originally posted by furyous68
                Again... not true. Our own literature often quotes outside sources of information when it comes to theological discussion, so why would we be banned from doing the same research?
                And as far as being on a gun forum, we are not policed, and the elders do not control our lives.
                Banned from doing so? No.....constantly "discouraged" from doing so? All the time......because it might make you start questioning things, open yourself up to the machinations of the Devil trying to lead you astray with apostate thinking.

                That's not what I asked. I asked how you think they would feel about if they did know? So if you're not "policed" or controlled by the elders, why/how is that people get "disfellowshipped", or "publicly reproved", or removed or barred from positions of responsibility in the congregation?

                Gun ownership is frowned upon in that organization. Is being a gun owner something you hide from your fellow JWs?
                Last edited by Untamed1972; 08-01-2014, 4:38 PM.
                "Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

                Quote for the day:
                "..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun

                Comment

                • #23
                  furyous68
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2010
                  • 1878

                  Originally posted by ArmedJackal
                  That was illuminating. Thanks for sharing it. My wife's brother is JW. It is frustrating that they never come to the family gatherings for holidays.
                  I won't speak for them, but that is something we have to be diplomatic about. Obviously we don't celebrate the holidays. But that should not preclude us from visiting with our family. We are not instructed to completely cut off ties with our family members who do not share the same faith. But we are cautioned in what situation we associate with anyone in order to not compromise our beliefs.
                  95,000,000 people die each day in the U.S. from gun violence

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    furyous68
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2010
                    • 1878

                    Originally posted by Untamed1972
                    That's not what I asked. I asked how you think they would feel about if they did know?

                    Gun ownership is frowned upon in that organization. Is being a gun owner something you hide from your fellow JWs?
                    No, it is not. several of the elders in my congregation know I own firearms, I know several elders that own firearms, granted they are not in my congregation. And I've often mentioned something I've "read on CalGuns" them. Is it something I broadcast? No. Somebody in the congregation may be offended that I own firearms. I don't want to offend anyone. Just like I don't broadcast what I own to anyone outside my religion. I don't think it's anyone's business what I do or do not own, nor do I want to hear from some uninformed person about the dangers of owning a firearm. While the society has cautioned against (not banned the act of) owning firearms for the sole purpose of self defense, it is not a "rule".
                    95,000,000 people die each day in the U.S. from gun violence

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Untamed1972
                      I need a LIFE!!
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 17579

                      Originally posted by furyous68
                      No, it is not. several of the elders in my congregation know I own firearms, I know several elders that own firearms, granted they are not in my congregation. And I've often mentioned something I've "read on CalGuns" them. Is it something I broadcast? No. Somebody in the congregation may be offended that I own firearms. I don't want to offend anyone. Just like I don't broadcast what I own to anyone outside my religion. I don't think it's anyone's business what I do or do not own, nor do I want to hear from some uninformed person about the dangers of owning a firearm. While the society has cautioned against (not banned the act of) owning firearms for the sole purpose of self defense, it is not a "rule".
                      Oh yea....that's how they do a lot of things. They don't make out right rules, but that doesn't mean their wont be consequences for "ignorning the hint". Which often just encourages people to be secretive or dishonest about their private lives.

                      Edited my previous posts with additional comments and questions also.
                      "Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

                      Quote for the day:
                      "..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Hoshnasi
                        Veteran Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 2515

                        My first serious relationship was with a JW. Her family made no attempt to convert me or acted differently in any way than us normies. They offered a few times for me to learn more about JW. I declined. No biggy.

                        Come to Flavor Country...

                        Originally posted by Kappy
                        You don't like homosexuality, don't let some dude stick his tab A into your slot B.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          furyous68
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2010
                          • 1878

                          Originally posted by Untamed1972
                          Banned from doing so? No.....constantly "discouraged" from doing so? All the time......because it might make you start questioning things, open yourself up to the machinations of the Devil trying to lead you astray with apostate thinking.

                          That's not what I asked. I asked how you think they would feel about if they did know? So if you're not "policed" or controlled by the elders, why/how is that people get "disfellowshipped", or "publicly reproved", or removed or barred from positions of responsibility in the congregation?

                          Gun ownership is frowned upon in that organization. Is being a gun owner something you hide from your fellow JWs?
                          You added some stuff after I responded to the first post.

                          Before becoming a Jehovah's Witness (being baptized), we have to decide for ourselves if what we are being taught is the truth or not. This is done by thinking for yourself. Nobody holds a gun to your head and says "this is what you must believe". After baptism, we are encouraged to regularly study THE BIBLE. Not just our literature, but the bible. I've personally used different translations, secular documents, even the Catholic Encyclopedia when doing my personal study. This is something that we are encouraged to do to build our faith. If a question comes up in our mind, then we are encouraged to research it. Not sure what else you want me to say on that subject. I can only tell you what my experience is.

                          As far as "elders policing us or not", it's simply not true. They are in a position to be "shepherds of the flock", something instituted by the Apostles after Jesus death. If they are aware of something you are doing that might lead you astray, then they will try to encourage & council you. They are there to help, not judge. Part of being a a Witness is submitting to the requirements of being a christian as set forth by the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you are not willing to follow those guidelines, then you are not allowed to remain in the congregation. Which is a very simple explanation of why we have disfellowshipings. I've never had an elder pry into my private life. There is no confessional, you do not have to lay your soul bare every Sunday.
                          Last edited by furyous68; 08-01-2014, 6:06 PM.
                          95,000,000 people die each day in the U.S. from gun violence

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            furyous68
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2010
                            • 1878

                            Originally posted by Untamed1972
                            Oh yea....that's how they do a lot of things. They don't make out right rules, but that doesn't mean their wont be consequences for "ignorning the hint". Which often just encourages people to be secretive or dishonest about their private lives.

                            Edited my previous posts with additional comments and questions also.
                            If you're looking for a religion that has no rules or guidelines, then obviously ours is not for you. We are responsible for our relationship with God. Nobody else can handle that for us. When we become baptized, we accept that we have to live by certain guidelines to remain in good faith. We make our own decisions. If that decision is a bad one, we live with the consequences. That consequence may be expulsion from the congregation if it is something serious enough, and that we are unrepentant of. They aren't "hints". Like I said, I own guns. I'm in good standing with my congregation. Not sure what else you want me to say.
                            95,000,000 people die each day in the U.S. from gun violence

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              eb47
                              Senior Member
                              • Jun 2012
                              • 1530

                              In no way do I agree with the doctrine of JW's but I do have some Brother/Sister inlaws that are JW and they own some firearms. Whether or not that they get together with fellow JW's to go shooting, I have no idea.

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                border.bandito
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 770

                                Originally posted by Untamed1972
                                Jesus also ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. JWs wont associate with anyone but other JWs. Kinda hard to respect the position of someone who doesn't want to have anything to do with you unless you agree to be one of them first.

                                i completely agree with you. however lets not forget that Jesus only did so to tell them about salvation and preach the Good News. He did not do so continuously if they were not open to changing their sinful nature.
                                regardless, i agree with you on that, but thats not what i was talking about in my initial post.
                                I was simply stating that my hat goes off to them (JW's) for being so devoted and faithful in their beliefs that they are willing to pound the pavement all day for it. thats all.
                                If you suck with irons you will suck with optics. The difference is the aimpoint will allow you to suck faster and a scope will give you a closer look at how much you suck.
                                AR's have finally become full blown "men's barbie dolls" now with fashion accessories.

                                Comment

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