Jehovah's Witnesses

[gdr_11]

Comments withdrawn

[Doheny]

You're on a slippery slope and I'm not sure your thread fits with intent of the Discussions of Faith forum.

[therealnickb]

Over the past couple of months, Sleep Train Arena has hosted three weekend long District Conferences for the Jehovah's Witnesses Western area. As a result, the Natomas area has been flooded with JW's at all of the local establishments and I made some interesting observations.

Having had friends who are atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, Morman, and Muslim, I am comfortable with people of various faiths and often have discussions with them about beliefs and the Bible. I found the JW's to avoid all contact with anyone outside their groups and even noted that it was rare to see any of them alone. I also noted that when they sat at tables for drinks or food, their conversations, gestures, and laughter seemed scripted and almost rehearsed. The Stepford Wives came to mind when I watched these folks at the adjoining tables and they worked hard to generate an air of aloofness and superiority.

I thought this odd since these same folks would be going door to door trying to get non-believers to come to their services and subscribe to their beliefs.

I have certainly known many fellow Christians from million dollar churches who exhibited similar behavior, but never to this extent.

Anyone else notice this?

So, JW has a conference and you noticed a lot of them attended?

Then you astutely notice that people from the same religious group speak alike.

Well done!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Not a Cook]

In a word, "no". I'm thinking of two folks in particular that are JWs that have had fairly detailed discussions with me about the Bible. Neither one is, however, someone I had just met; I had a developed relationship with each. And they are fairly dissimilar - one very much politically conservative, the other very politically liberal - although because they're JWs, neither participated in politics. Both were JWs who had long been JWs and both knew their Bibles. They got a number of biblical details right that many evangelical Christians commonly get wrong. Our discussions were very interesting and respectful. I think they were both surprised to find someone who wasn't a JW that knew the Bible well (unfortunately, that didn't seem to be something they'd encountered before).

At the end of the day, I still pray for them. While we agreed on a surprising number of biblical doctrines (at least it surprised me), what saddens me most is that they did not understand yet that Christ is not only the Son of God, but also God in the flesh, and that salvation is by God's grace through faith in His completed work of sacrificial redemption. Obviously, these are at the heart of the Scriptures. Also, keep in mind that the Watchtower Society can be quite a controlling element in many JWs lives and especially in their interpretation of biblical doctrines, and it is VERY difficult to find JW who will question it.

[gdr_11]

No ill will intended, just wondered if I was misinterpreting.

[anthonyca]

In a word, "no". I'm thinking of two folks in particular that are JWs that have had fairly detailed discussions with me about the Bible. Neither one is, however, someone I had just met; I had a developed relationship with each. And they are fairly dissimilar - one very much politically conservative, the other very politically liberal - although because they're JWs, neither participated in politics. Both were JWs who had long been JWs and both knew their Bibles. They got a number of biblical details right that many evangelical Christians commonly get wrong. Our discussions were very interesting and respectful. I think they were both surprised to find someone who wasn't a JW that knew the Bible well (unfortunately, that didn't seem to be something they'd encountered before).

At the end of the day, I still pray for them. While we agreed on a surprising number of biblical doctrines (at least it surprised me), what saddens me most is that they did not understand yet that Christ is not only the Son of God, but also God in the flesh, and that salvation is by God's grace through faith in His completed work of sacrificial redemption. Obviously, these are at the heart of the Scriptures. Also, keep in mind that the Watchtower Society can be quite a controlling element in many JWs lives and especially in their interpretation of biblical doctrines, and it is VERY difficult to find JW who will question it.

Close to my experience. One of my guys at work is a JW as is one of my former guys who I still talk to.

They are both good workers and people but VASTLY different in personality. I am not active in organized religion but I do enjoy talking to some people about religion, as long as they are not telling me how wrong I am or they are not pushy. Both of these guys are very enjoyable to speak about religion, even if we don't agree on everything.

They have invited me to functions and I have politely declined but we remain friends and talk often.

One thing I have noticed in all the JWs I have met, and that is quite a few, they are extremely ethically diverse and all the ones I know personally have spouses of a different race than themselves. I asked about weapons and they are frowned upon. They also told me that I would be asked to stop martial arts training. They told me that self defense, up to killing someone is justified but that training for it is not acceptable. One of the guys used to compete in MMA but he was told to stop after returning to the JWs.

The guy who was an MMA competitor was banished from the JW for a few years, he had no contact with his siblings or parents. His new wife, the reason he was banished (for having an affair with her), joined the JW after they were together and she was going leave him for the faith so he went back. Now, he is extremely close with his family again.

That brings up another observation. Some of the men I met were brought into the organization by a woman whom they were interested in and later married. There are many more sisters than brothers and many know they will never marry or have children because the faith lacks enough males. I joke with these two guys about this and they laugh. Actually they are both very funny but in completely different ways, one could be a stand up comedian and they do it with no swearing.

As a whole, all the JWs I have met have been very nice. They do admit that they are closer to other JWs but they are much less judgemental than any other religious people who have preached their version of religion. They have always kept the personal attacks out of the debate or preaching even if they disagree with my interpretation and one of the guys actually told me that is part of their training.

These are just my experiences and of course every religion has good and bad people.

[gdr_11]

I apologize if my idle comments were derogatory. End of this thread for me.

[anthonyca]

I apologize if my idle comments were derogatory. End of this thread for me.

You don't have to apologize and this is a good discussion. I actually had the same experience as you until I became friends with quite a few JWs.

[mossy]

not bad mouthing JW's or their views, just saying this cartoon is one of the creepiest things i have ever seen.

[Untamed1972]

In a word, "no". I'm thinking of two folks in particular that are JWs that have had fairly detailed discussions with me about the Bible. Neither one is, however, someone I had just met; I had a developed relationship with each. And they are fairly dissimilar - one very much politically conservative, the other very politically liberal - although because they're JWs, neither participated in politics. Both were JWs who had long been JWs and both knew their Bibles. They got a number of biblical details right that many evangelical Christians commonly get wrong. Our discussions were very interesting and respectful. I think they were both surprised to find someone who wasn't a JW that knew the Bible well (unfortunately, that didn't seem to be something they'd encountered before).

At the end of the day, I still pray for them. While we agreed on a surprising number of biblical doctrines (at least it surprised me), what saddens me most is that they did not understand yet that Christ is not only the Son of God, but also God in the flesh, and that salvation is by God's grace through faith in His completed work of sacrificial redemption. Obviously, these are at the heart of the Scriptures. Also, keep in mind that the Watchtower Society can be quite a controlling element in many JWs lives and especially in their interpretation of biblical doctrines, and it is VERY difficult to find JW who will question it.

Not really.....they're just "Ex-JWs" now

[ArmedJackal]

Maybe the Witnesses are correct. Who can say? Most JW folks that I have met had parents who were JW as well. The fact that most Christians have Christian parents and most Rastafarians had Rastafarian parents and Muslims had Muslim parents leads to a fairly clear conclusion that the religion people ultimately choose is primarily determined not by divine revelation, but by the culture you were raised in.

With that being the case, if god is as hardline on entrance to heaven as many religions profess, it would seem largely a pure matter of blind luck for a small percentage of humanity who would be saved.

[RAMCLAP]

From your point of view it may well seem that way. As far as Orthodox Christianity goes, the Apostles Creed was adopted in the first century and the Nicene Creed reconfirms it in the fourth century. The JW's(Arians) were found to be in error from the Apostles teachings. While they are free to believe what they want they are simply not Orthodox Christian.

[aeromech]

When I was in college back in the mid 1980's my wife and I lived in a typical neighborhood in San Jose. One day a married couple knocked on the door. They were mixed race, very polite, very conservative in their manner. Since I wasn't attending church I decided to invite them in for a religeous discussion. My wife ran off to the bedroom to hide.

They would come twice a month and we would sit at the kitchen table discussing their faith and the bible. At first, they didn't reveal too much about their beliefs but as time went by and we met for about 6 months they began to let me in on what the JW believed in. I learned the following as I remember it:

1) They believe that only a finite amount of souls (144,000) will be allowed into heaven. The number has almost been reached and once they are all there then armagedon will occur.

2) They believe that there is only a heaven and a hell and no inbetween.

3) They believe that in order for a soul to reach heaven he has to accept Jesus as his lord and savior. I asked, what about the billions of Chinese that lived BEFORE Christ was born? They stuck to their guns.

4) They didn't celebrate birthdays, Christmas, Halloween, etc.

5) Women weren't allowed to hold a position of authority in the church.

6) They believed that if you were part of the 144K then you knew it. A woman in their church knew this but because she was female still couldn't hold office.

7) A wife was subserviant to her husband.

8) The reason JW churches are small is because they believe that they have to be built in one day.

9) They call themselves Christians but don't believe Christ was the son of God and don't believe in the trinity.

Pretty much after 6 months and finally getting them to be honest with me about their beliefs I told them that I wasn't ever going to convert but appreciated their time discussing religion. They got kinda pissed and I never saw them again.

I'm not saying that they are right or wrong about their beliefs. I'm just saying that their beliefs are quite different than mine. I still respect them.

[furyous68]

When I was in college back in the mid 1980's my wife and I lived in a typical neighborhood in San Jose. One day a married couple knocked on the door. They were mixed race, very polite, very conservative in their manner. Since I wasn't attending church I decided to invite them in for a religeous discussion. My wife ran off to the bedroom to hide.

They would come twice a month and we would sit at the kitchen table discussing their faith and the bible. At first, they didn't reveal too much about their beliefs but as time went by and we met for about 6 months they began to let me in on what the JW believed in. I learned the following as I remember it:

1) They believe that only a finite amount of souls (144,000) will be allowed into heaven. The number has almost been reached and once they are all there then armagedon will occur.

2) They believe that there is only a heaven and a hell and no inbetween.

3) They believe that in order for a soul to reach heaven he has to accept Jesus as his lord and savior. I asked, what about the billions of Chinese that lived BEFORE Christ was born? They stuck to their guns.

4) They didn't celebrate birthdays, Christmas, Halloween, etc.

5) Women weren't allowed to hold a position of authority in the church.

6) They believed that if you were part of the 144K then you knew it. A woman in their church knew this but because she was female still couldn't hold office.

7) A wife was subserviant to her husband.

8) The reason JW churches are small is because they believe that they have to be built in one day.

9) They call themselves Christians but don't believe Christ was the son of God and don't believe in the trinity.

Pretty much after 6 months and finally getting them to be honest with me about their beliefs I told them that I wasn't ever going to convert but appreciated their time discussing religion. They got kinda pissed and I never saw them again.

I'm not saying that they are right or wrong about their beliefs. I'm just saying that their beliefs are quite different than mine. I still respect them.

OK... lurking on this thread but had to clear a couple things up here.

1. Pretty close. The number of those with a heavenly future is correct. The timing of Armegeddon doesn't so much have to do with those "spaces" being filled up (as we believe they have already been chosen), as it does with God's timing.

2. Yes, but not in the traditional sense. We do believe there is a spirit realm (heaven), but that "hell" is simply the grave... not a fiery place of eternal torment.

3. Because we believe in a resurrection hope, the "billions of Chinese born before Christ" would have a resurrection hope. The bible speaks of 2 resurrections. One of the righteous (those that knew of & put their faith in god & Christ and kept it until death), and one of the unrighteous (those who didn't, like the Chinese ).

4. True. There are many reasons why we don't. I can get into that more specifically if anyone wants to know. Not trying to write a novel here.

5. True, but that doesn't mean that we don't value women. They make up the majority of our ministry "workforce" (for lack of a better word). They are truly at the forefront of our preaching & teaching work.

6. This sounds about right.

7. Yes, but see my my statement for 5. We value our wives. While we do hold to the traditional family head structure where the husband is the "head of the household", that doesn't mean we can be tyrants & domineering. I personally value my wife's input, and trust her to handle a lot of the day to day family stuff. But the overall responsibility for the family falls on my shoulders. We are encouraged to discuss with our wives our options when a major decision needs to be made, and consider their thoughts on the matter. Ultimately though... for better or worse, the decision is the husbands.

8. Wrong. The reason our Kingdom Halls are "small" (read simple) is because of several reasons. Cost being one. A lot of people think it's wierd that they don't have windows. This, too, is a cost feature. Commercial buildings don't require natural light... though that my be changing as energy guidelines become more stringent & use of natural light is favored in the code. Windows can be expensive. Plus, it's better security (fewer points of entry) and less maintenance. Another reason they are simple is that we don't feel the need to have a large, opulent places of worship. The focus is on our ministry... not where we worship. Also, we don't build them in one day. We used to be able to build them over a weekend. But as the building codes have become more complicated & in depth, we usually get it done within a week or two. We use all volunteer, skilled labor, and work closely with the local building officials to make it as smooth an operation as possible so that we can move as quickly as possible.

9. Completely false on the first part. We believe with our entire heart that Jesus Christ was the son of God. We do not believe that in the Trinity because the trinity is not taught in the bible. If he is God's son... how are they the same person... which is what the trinity teaching essentially says.

Hope I cleared up a couple things for you.

As for some of the other comments, we don't ban the ownership of weapons among our members. I own them, I know several in my area that own them. It is a personal decision. That said, we do hold the sanctity of life in high regard. That includes a criminal's as well as our own. While we are not pacifists, we do believe everything should be done possible to avoid situations that put us into any situation where we might have to harm someone. If we can't avoid it, we are not condemned for protecting ourselves. Which is pretty much common sense.

As for questioning the Watchtower Society, we are actively encouraged to do our own bible research. We don't blindly follow the teachings. Granted, some may, but we are strongly encouraged to prove to ourselves whether or not the teachings are true. Nobody is holding a gun to our head. We don't force people to stay in the congregation against their will.

[furyous68]

Oh, and to the OP... no offense taken. I understand where your observation is coming from.

Try to remember though, most of the people you saw attending that convention were from out of town, so those from the same areas would have been hanging around each other. Plus.. as someone else mentioned.. they were there specifically for that convention.

We don't advocate isolationism... let's be honest, we live on this planet, we have to work, make a living, etc... But we are encouraged to associate with those who share the same values & faith. I'm not saying that you, or anyone else aren't worthy of our association... but when you are trying to center your life on your faith, it makes sense that the people you spend most of your time with would be of the same faith.. right?