Rejection of Sin

[Bill Carson]

So how does a saved person read the Exodus story where God threatens Pharaoh with murdering all his first born, then doesn't even give him a choice to obey, hardens his heart and murders the first born anyway? It's a dick move by any standard.

Absolutely. But if the Bible is the infallible and 100% true word of God, then the part above is true. And if that's true, god is neither righteous nor perfect.

I believe God has hardened your heart as not to believe in him therefore any explanation I give will not be acceptable to your own view.

[bigmike82]

I believe God has hardened your heart as not to believe in him therefore any explanation I give will not be acceptable to your own view.

Which would reinforce the concept that God's a dick? Doubly so if he's then also keeping me out of heaven?

[Bill Carson]

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

[Bill Carson]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[bigmike82]

But if God has hardened my heart I obviously can't do that...

[Bill Carson]

But if God has hardened my heart I obviously can't do that...

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

[Not a Cook]

bigmike82 - Two things:

1) From your Nazi/Stalin/Israeli scenario above, it appears that you do not believe in absolute morality. You appear to think what is wrong is different for different people, depending on whether you're a Nazi, Stalin, or Israeli. Put simply: moral relativism, or lack of moral asbolutes, is hogwash. Wrong is wrong; right is right. It doesn't matter who you are. God's laws are absolute. There is right, and there is wrong. Morality is not a scale of relativity; it is absolute. Murder is wrong for everyone. Period. The REASON it's wrong is because God says it's wrong. No human being, regardless of what group or affiliation or upbringing they may have, can murder and be right. Murder is wrong. Any "moral code" that says otherwise isn't "moral" at all; it's just some man-made philosophy that is itself wrong. I'm not sure, though, that you're distinguishing between killing and murder as I noted in my original response above. No where did God condone or order the murder of anyone. See the fifth item in the list of killing that isn't murder in my original response above.

2) RE: Pharaoh - yes, God hardened His heart. But yes, Pharaoh had already determined not to obey God on his own. Pharaoh had already enslaved the Hebrew people. Pharaoh had already mistreated them; he had set harsh taskmasters over the Hebrews, and abused the Hebrews to the point of many dead. Pharaoh had ordered the murder of the firstborn Israelite males. Pharaoh is the one guilty of murder. God didn't override Pharaoh's choice to disobey God; Pharaoh had already determined not to obey God and God judiciously hardened his heart. Pharaoh was guilty of enslavement and murder. Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Look up Exodus 10:1-2. You may not like the explanation, but it is valid, and it is good.

The Book of Romans teaches us that, if we continue in sin and reject Him, God will judiciously allow us to fall deeper and deeper into into sin. He did this with Pharaoh. And, it is worth noting that He did so for a good reason. Regardless, the killing of the firstborn Egyptians was not murder, and God is not responsible for a man choosing to reject Him, even if that man is the ruler of an empire. Each person is responsible for his own actions. Along those lines, I would encourage you to re-read this excerpt from the 1st and 2nd chapter of Romans:



12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

[Bill Carson]

Does the bible say I the Lord God hardened bigmike82's heart or is the message to bigmike82;“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[bigmike82]

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

That ... doesn't really address what I said.

[bigmike82]

No where did God condone or order the murder of anyone.

But that's only true if you use a circular argument that whatever God does is right. In a true absolute system, the murder of an entire group of people simply because they were born first is *wrong* and is murder. The murder of a city (including children) is *murder*. Any moral code that doesn't agree with that is *wrong*.

You may not like the explanation, but it is valid, and it is good.

How is that good? God could have opened his eyes and shown him the truth. Instead, he drove him further into rejection JUST so that God could murder the firstborn and show his power.

He did this with Pharaoh.

He didn't 'allow' him to fall. He *forced* him to.

No moral code, and especially not an absolute one that's founded on something other than "god says so" can justify what the bible says God did.

[Bill Carson]

I know one thing for sure. One day bigmike82 will stand before God for judgement not the other way around.

[bigmike82]

I know one thing for sure. One day bigmike82 will stand before God for judgement not the other way around.

Or Odin. That'd be way more awesome.

[Not a Cook]

But that's only true if you use a circular argument that whatever God does is right. In a true absolute system, the murder of an entire group of people simply because they were born first is *wrong* and is murder. The murder of a city (including children) is *murder*. Any moral code that doesn't agree with that is *wrong*.

How is that good? God could have opened his eyes and shown him the truth. Instead, he drove him further into rejection JUST so that God could murder the firstborn and show his power.


He didn't 'allow' him to fall. He *forced* him to.

No moral code, and especially not an absolute one that's founded on something other than "god says so" can justify what the bible says God did.

God didn't force Pharaoh to fail; Pharaoh had long been disobeying God. You've got to be true to history. Did you look at Exodus 10:1-2 for the reason God hardened Pharaoh's heart? It wasn't to teach Pharaoh anything. Pharaoh already had his chance and had chosen not to obey God. Exodus 10:1-2 () tells us that God used Pharaoh as an object lesson to demonstrate His power, so that the ancient Israelites, and ultimately all those who follow God, would know who He is.

Hmmm... circular logic/circular arguments... I'll throw this out there. What ever God says is true. What He says is good, is good. What He says is wrong, is wrong. There are absolutes, because God is THE absolute, and His judgment is absolute. That's not circular logic at all. It's a statement of fact. It doesn't depend on reasoning at all; it's merely a statement of fact. You don't have to "reason through" or "logic through" a fact; you either accept it, or else foolishly choose to reject reality. Some things just are, plain and simple. Every system of belief has to ultimately come back to a place where you accept some basic fact as fact. The most basic fact of all is that what God says is true.

If you believe in moral relativism, then what, ULTIMATELY, do you base "your morals" on? Where do you draw the line? If you don't believe in absolute right and absolute wrong, where do you hang your hat? That's the most DANGEROUS, wishy-washy, open-to-anything-because-anything-can-be-"justified"-concept there is. If you reject absolute right and wrong, you're ultimately left in a mire of "anything goes". If you were one of those murdered by Nazis, would you still think well, "it was okay for the Nazis to murder, because they were Nazis, and the Nazi "moral system" said murdering me was okay?" I don't think so. Murder is wrong! Not because some man said it was wrong; not because some society or even every society says it is wrong. Murder is wrong because God says it is wrong.

[bigmike82]

Murder is wrong because God says it is wrong.

Unless God does it. But wait, then it's not murder. Not even when it's children...

I can't...won't...accept this:

The most basic fact of all is that what God says is true.

I take that back. I won't accept that for the God described in the Bible. Or...pretty much any religious text out there that I've read.

If you reject absolute right and wrong

I don't necessarily reject it. I think there are certain things that are wrong regardless of the circumstances. The murder of children, for example, is one of them.

You can have a moral code that's not exceedingly relativistic without resorting to "this book tells me so."

[Gutz]

I believe God has hardened your heart as not to believe in him therefore any explanation I give will not be acceptable to your own view.

Why would he do that? Isn't he merciful?