Rejection of Sin

[bigmike82]

So here's something that's always bugged me about the big three religions and something that has a great deal to do with why I'm completely ambivalent about God's existence.

So...sin. Sinning is a transgression against God's laws and his intents, right?

If this is true, I don't think sin is *bad*, and I certainly don't think that any standard set by the Biblical god is valid in any way. I mean...think about it right? God *murdered* without warning every first born in Egypt under the pretext that Pharaoh disobeyed him (of course, didn't the same story also say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart?). He sanctioned and ordered mass rapes, murders, genocide and enslavement. He screwed with his follower by making him believe that he had to kill his own son for God, and allowed the Devil to totally destroy another believer's life just to show how awesome he was.

Knowing this...how the heck can a being who does this expect us to obey his words? How can you accept being called a 'sinner' by someone who does that? None of us have committed anything even close to the horrible deeds sanctioned by the biblical description of God.

I honestly don't get it.

[newglockster]

If you honestly want to understand it, you should read the Bible. All of it.

Question: Do you at all believe that there is a God? One all-powerful Creator that is interested in people?

A couple points:
~ Just as you can expect to be executed if you murder someone, there are similar consequences to breaking God's laws and sinning. Everyone has sinned at one point or another, and all equally deserve death in the sight of God. The mere fact that any of us live past our first sin as a baby is because God shows grace and mercy. None of which we deserve.
~ Amazingly though, God has not left us without hope. He has provided a way of salvation from His punishment, by accepting His free gift of salvation, of believing that Jesus paid the punishment for our sins. Almost like, if you murdered someone, and were sentenced to execution, and then someone else died in your place.
~ If you read the Bible understanding those points, and other basic truths, you will see that there is logical and sane reasons for everything that happened. God is not a god of hate or evil, but He is very much a just God, and at the same time, extremely loving and forgiving. But don't take His forgiveness for granted.

I highly recommend reading the Bible for yourself, and also finding a Christian friend or pastor to explain it better.

[Not a Cook]

BigMike82 - I only have a few minutes to address your question, so please pardon my brevity and quick reply.

First, I assume that by "the big three religions" you are referring to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. If I am correct, where specifically do you see that God "sanctioned and ordered mass rapes, murders, genocide and enslavement" in either Judaism or Christianity? (Granted, Mohammad and therefore Islam sanctioned all of the above, but I'm not asking about Islam.)

Second, I think you may want to look at the definition of murder. Murder is a subset of killing; i.e. all murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. God's commandment in the original Hebrew language is against murder, not killing.

Some examples of killing that are not murder:
1) killing an assailant in self-defense or defense of others (which is, interestingly enough, often a topic here on other threads in CG);
2) the government killing a murderer who has been condemned to death by judgment of the state;
3) military personnel killing the enemy under orders of their government;
4) a truly accidental killing (more can be said on this, but for for brevity I will not go into detail here);
5) Almighty God killing someone according to His holy and sovereign judgment, or ordering someone to kill someone else according to his Holy and sovereign judgment.

There is much that could be said for this fifth example. However, for brevity sake, I'll limit it thus: If the state has the right to order the execution of a criminal, God has infinitely more right to execute a sinner or order a sinner's execution. God has the right to kill anyone who has broken His law because the penalty for sin is death. THANKFULLY, though, God is not only just but He is also merciful and longsuffering, and God doesn't kill us the second we deserve it. Instead, He patiently and kindly waits and extends us mercy and even offers us love and extravagant grace instead of killing us like we deserve. Instead of destroying us, He patiently waits for us, and even sacrificed His own beloved Son in order to offer us His gracious gift of salvation. If God, who is all-knowing and compassionate, determines that He will kill a particular person, you can be sure that He has very good reason to do so and is more than fair in doing so. Rather than assume God is in the wrong, I would encourage you to consider that God's reasons may not be obvious or even discernible to you, but that does not mean that His reasons are not valid.

Gotta run for now... hope that helps. Feel free to ask further.

[riddler408]

The Old Testament is interesting to say the least!

[Magazineman]

What??? God makes up rules & he is considered merciful for not murdering infants for violating them?

In what way does that make any sense at all?

I cannot punish people for breaking my personal rule of No Ugly Pants.
Nor am I considered a swell guy by NOT killing them.

If that was how it worked I'd be a huge hero for my awesome restraint in going for weeks on end without killing anybody. I am The Merciful.

If that sounds silly to you, that would be silly for a God too.

[bigmike82]

Question: Do you at all believe that there is a God? One all-powerful Creator that is interested in people?

Yes to the first, and absolutely not to the second.

I highly recommend reading the Bible for yourself, and also finding a Christian friend or pastor to explain it better.

I have. That's what led me to my rejection of the notion of sin in the first place.

If I am correct, where specifically do you see that God "sanctioned and ordered mass rapes, murders, genocide and enslavement" in either Judaism or Christianity?

Old Testament my friend. The Exodus from Egypt and the conquest of Israel in particular (never mind the Flood...).

I have massive trouble accepting God's grace knowing what he did in the old days. That kind of God isn't worthy of worship, in my obviously not humble opinion.

[newglockster]

Here is a question: Why is rape, murder, and genocide wrong? Why is stealing wrong?

[bigmike82]

Here's what I take particular issue with:

And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

But worse:

10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

That last one resulted in the mass murder of the firstborn of Egypt.

How does someone who does that have any authority to judge me for something stupid like "damn that chick's hot"?

Here is a question: Why is rape, murder, and genocide wrong? Why is stealing wrong?

Depends on your moral code. If you're a Nazi...it isn't wrong when you do it untermenschen. If you're Stalin, it isn't wrong if you do it to traitors to the rodina. If you're Yahweh, it isn't wrong if you're not Israeli...? That's the only conclusion I can come up with based on the Old Testament.

[pbsmind]

There is rape, genocide, incest and murder in the Bible, but the Bible is also a historical book. Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean God commanded it.

Since you reject that God is perfect, righteous and just it makes sense that you would also reject sin. But if you believe God is perfect and righteous, it makes sense that he can not abide sin.

A single "tiny" sin is enough to separate us from God for eternity, and deserves his judgment. Your example would imply that you think all the first born were innocent. As sin equals death, and all have sin, nobody is innocent we all deserve death.

[Bill Carson]

Reading the bible when you are not saved is like reading a letter written to someone else.

[riddler408]

Reading the bible when you are not saved is like reading a letter written to someone else.

Really?

There is a major history lesson contained in the bible that would speak to anyone. Not just the "saved"...

[Bill Carson]

Really?

There is a major history lesson contained in the bible that would speak to anyone. Not just the "saved"...

You proved my point exactly.

[riddler408]

You proved my point exactly.

[bigmike82]

Reading the bible when you are not saved is like reading a letter written to someone else.

So how does a saved person read the Exodus story where God threatens Pharaoh with murdering all his first born, then doesn't even give him a choice to obey, hardens his heart and murders the first born anyway? It's a dick move by any standard.

Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean God commanded it.

Absolutely. But if the Bible is the infallible and 100% true word of God, then the part above is true. And if that's true, god is neither righteous nor perfect.

[riddler408]

So how does a saved person read the Exodus story where God threatens Pharaoh with murdering all his first born, then doesn't even give him a choice to obey, hardens his heart and murders the first born anyway? It's a dick move by any standard.

Absolutely. But if the Bible is the infallible and 100% true word of God, then the part above is true. And if that's true, god is neither righteous nor perfect.

Huge if considering it was all physically written by men....