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I'm certainly not as learned as you, but....
Yes the New Testament God changes. It is now God the Father, Christ the son, and the Holy Spirit.
Having Colossians in your User Name, I assume you are not Jewish; that you believe Jesus is the new Messiah and saviour, and brought us the New Covenant. Why would you make comparisons or use examples from the OT?
Treachery in the OT? Sure, all over the place. Treachery in the New Testament? Well, there was Judas.Comment
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What do you suppose these verses mean?
Malachi 3:6 “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.We also know that the God has always been God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit based off of the Genesis story, so nothing has changed there.Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
To sum it up read these passages and you can see salvation by faith is nothing new old or new testament
Romans 3:27-4:25
Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 03 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
Abraham Justified Before Circumcision
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.LIVE FREE OR DIE!
M. Sage's I have a dream speech;
Originally posted by M. Sage
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Wow, Great thread.. I had to say that I am Impressed & Blessed to be reading it..Comment
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I don't want this discussion to turn sour, but I am new to faith and have questions. I can't quote verse after verse.
I believe that to remain saved in the faith, your works must stay true and just. Barang quoted from the Bible above regarding this. Here is an example;
Do you believe a person can be saved, for life, by simply being a decendant of Abraham and do not denounce God? A person can be saved, for life, by accepting Jesus into their life?Hebrews 10: 26-27 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [ there is ] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [ there is ] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.
If you are not judged by your works after you accept God into your life, what is the incentive to remain true and just? Are Jim Jones and David Koresh in Heaven?
Is denouncing God or Jesus the ONLY thing to keep a person out of Heaven?Comment
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No living in faith and giving lip service are two different things. Many give lip service, and bear no fruit
I am no mans judge, but I would suspect that they are not. You can give lip service and bear no fruit, or give your heart and bear fruit. Giving your heart does not mean you will not fall back into sin or not commit sin, or even not maliciously commit sin as you can see Davids sin below. It means you will confess and look for the Spirits guidance and let the Spirit live through you, but you will trip and fall.
I am not following this question, are you suggesting that we earn our way into heaven?
Not trying to turn it sour, quoting scripture is the example we have from Christ and his apostles, and we should try to do the same
Once again here are the words of Christ recorded by John. When he says No one that means No one, not you, not me not joe bob blue, no one. If you walked away, you were never in his hands to begin with. IMO
The point I was trying to make with King David is that he committed murder willfully and maliciously, and when he was confronted by the prophet Nathan, this is his response.John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Here we see Nathan confronting David for the Murder, the following is Davids reaction to this unjust murder.2 Samuel 12
Nathan Rebukes David
12 Then the Lord sent Nathan to David. And he came to him and said,
“There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.
2 “The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.
3 “But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb
Which he bought and nourished;
And it grew up together with him and his children.
It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom,
And was like a daughter to him.
4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man,
And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd,
To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him;
Rather he took the poor man’s ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”
Now we see Nathan letting the cat out of the bag.5 Then David’s anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the Lord lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die. 6 He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion.”
The point of this story is to show you that even "A man after Gods heart" Falls to sin when not relying on God. Does this mean we won't go to Heaven when we falter? Peter denied Christ, David Murdered, this book is filled with people like you and I who fall short. If they used perfect people (other than Christ), how could we ever live up to His historic examples? I have no Doubt both Peter and David are at the throne room of Christ, not because of deeds, or lack of deeds, but because of their contrite hearts.7 Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15 So Nathan went to his house.LIVE FREE OR DIE!
M. Sage's I have a dream speech;
Originally posted by M. SageComment
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@MotoriousRacing - This is one of the most debated concepts among current Christians. Just look in this very thread for completely contradictory viewpoints. IE the responses of Barang and BlackReef.
What I see is most people have trouble because the bible does seem to contradict itself. For instance Ephesians 2:8-9 states-
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
While James 2:24 says
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
One verse says by faith only, and the other says not by faith only. So what happens is people explain how they make sense together.
How I see it is that Christ paid for our sins, a debt we can never repay, and never earn ourselves. It is by His grace alone we can be saved, there is no other. But if we expect him to extend us His grace we must believe and accept Him. And for Him to know we accept Him we must follow his teachings and do what He says. To say we accept him and not listen, is to deny Him. So yes we have to do things - not to earn our right of way, or to atone for our sins ourselves - but to accept his Grace.
That's what I believe.Comment
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LIVE FREE OR DIE!
M. Sage's I have a dream speech;
Originally posted by M. SageComment
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@ Colossians - Am am confused by you, too.
Earlier in the thread you seemed to believe in 'sola scripture, therefore baptism and confession are not required. It seemed you believed that all you needed to be saved is to profess your faith. Specifically regarding this thread, you seem to believe that suicide will not keep you from Heaven, because it is not stated 'sola scripture.
With OT David, you seemed to suggest that even with bad deeds, one could be granted the kingdom of God. So is David in and Jim Jones and David Gursh out?
So if you have become saved, by claiming faith in the Lord and accepting Jesus as our saviour, who died to wash away all our sin, can you be banished from the kingdom of God, our are you saved forever if saved once?
Certainly murder should banish you from the saving grace of God, and if so, how do you get back to being saved? Would this not require some sort of repentance or a purgatory? Could one who has fallen from grace by murder, become saved again, just by asking within a single prayer? Could one murder-pray-murder-pray-murder-pray on and on and be saved in the end?
Just because suicide may not be listed in the Bible as a sin, couldn't it be equated with murder? If so, then the deceased is now banished, without the opportunity to pray, ask to be re-saved, or repent to gain back salvation. At best, person never lost their salvation, but is so, purgatory would seem to be the only way this person could gain back salvation.
Out of time, but just some thoughts.Comment
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Not my goal. I will try to be more articulate.
I never said confessing is not necessary,
1 john 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.and we see examples of those who are not baptized who have been saved in the bible (although if you know and do not get baptized I would ask why?). Yes, faith is what you need and everything else grows out of your faith. If you don't believe, what good are your works?Acts 16:30-31
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
The Jailer Converted
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Its not that it is not mentioned, it is if you truly believe, you cannot be snatched out of his hand, do people slip up and sin? Of course they do, this is why we all need the saving grace of Jesus.
Continue reading the book of Samuel and see what happens to David and how he reacts and try comparing it to Jim Jones and David Koresh. I will wait until you finish reading that to see you think, then I will share with you why I think they are not the same.
If it is a saving faith, I believe scripture is clear that we are saved forever, but as mentioned before. Many just give lip service and their lives never change. IF you truly believe your life will change.
All sins require a contrite and repentant heart. Read Romans 6, and it should answer this question.
BTW, great questions, I do not claim to know all there is to know about Christianity, I just think somethings are pretty clear in the Bible, and don't really have a lot of room for debate, while other areas may be gray, but are not essential.
Once dead, there is no way to gain anything. Most of us sin in a moment of weakness. Does it mean we are not saved? No, it means we are human and need the coverage of Christs blood. For the person who murders and prays, repeat, repeat, I would say they are probably not receiving the message.LIVE FREE OR DIE!
M. Sage's I have a dream speech;
Originally posted by M. SageComment
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Bingo... colossians323 has the right idea; I suspect that any confusion may be because some of the other posters are stymied by a false dichotomy. The false dichotomy goes something like this: are we saved by grace, or by works? Which is it? Sometimes this false dichotomy is phrased a little differently, but in the end this false dichotomy assumes that works would somehow take away from God's grace, as that would seem to mean faith alone wouldn't suffice.
The only way to be saved is by God's grace at work through the good news of Christ. We must exercise faith (which is given to us graciously by God) in Christ and follow Him. But works do not detract from such faith, instead works are necessarily the fruit of saving faith.
There is not a single contradiction in the Bible. While much of the New Testament focuses on the fact that salvation comes from faith in Christ, the book of James was written to teach us what that saving faith looks like.
James 2:14-26:
Look at it this way: the works of the flesh don't save, and can't save. In fact, only God's work can save us (i.e. the work of God in giving His Son as the propitiation for our sins, and also His giving us faith in Him). How can any man be saved? Only by exercising faith in Christ (believing Him, repenting from sin to life, trusting Him, following Him). The faith that saves is not by some mere intellectual admission that man may give whereby he simple acknowledges that Christ is who said He is and that He died as the propitiation for our sins. That's a dead faith. The type of faith that is genuine, saving faith is the type whereby a man truly comes to trust Christ and follow Him. Such living faith WILL produce good works. There should be no debate like "faith vs. works"... it's, "You want evidence of my faith? Here, look at my works."
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That said, I think we've steered a little away from the OP's original question. Namely, "Does suicide bar Christians from heaven?" The answer is "no", but more needs to be said than just "no".
What bars us from entering the kingdom of God is our sin. Any (and every) single sin. Whether it be murder, covetousness, or any other sin, any single sin bars us from the kingdom of God. BUT... the good news of the gospel of Christ is that God has extended truly amazing grace to us and we can have our sins forgiven and be given the very righteousness of Christ if place our faith in Him. Being given new life in Christ means we will no longer be barred from the kingdom of God; in fact, new life in Christ means we are made new creatures in Him and are given heavenly citizenship. No sin can take that away, not even murder (and by the way, suicide is murder)...
The questions isn't, "Can Christ's sacrifice save us from the sin of murder (for suicide is actually just a very specific type of murder)?" The more appropriate question is, "Would someone who is really a Christian commit suicide?" If anyone reading this is contemplating suicide, don't do it... it obviously isn't what God wants you to do. He wants you to follow Him, and following Him doesn't involve murdering a precious life (not even your "own" - remember, if you're His, your life is not your own, but actually belongs to Him).
BTW, I don't want to throw anyone off with "churchy" sounding words or "Christain-ese". If anything I wrote above is confusing, that isn't my intent. Just let me know and I'll be happy to clarify.Regarding the 2nd Amendment:
"...to disarm the people ― that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason ("The Father of the Bill of Rights")
Regarding Life and Death:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
The BIG question: "What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?" Matthew 27:22bComment
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Thanks Colossians. I was getting mixed messages because you have replied in question form, without stating your position.
Although we are all brothers/sisters in faith, there are many interpretations of the mystery of faith spread between the OT and the New Covenant, prophets and Jesus's parables, Catholicism and the Reformation, and even faith and science.
I just want to soak up as much information about faith and grace as I can, and try to live in grace by my works.Comment
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