Capital punishment

[Wordupmybrotha]

I doubt anyone is going to change your mind, especially when your view point is based on emotion, and not biblical.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

Well, the way I see it. If you are not going to do it in the town square for all to see, what is the point?

[CaliforniaCowboy]

I do not know, but Did Jesus ever protest the Romans for crucifying criminals in his time? or any other executions?

[The War Wagon]

Romans 13.

Moreover, consider Jesus own Words at His crucifixion, to Pontius Pilate, in John 19 (NKJV):

5678 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid,
91011no power over me if it were not given to you from above

For a better understanding of what we Lutherans call, the "Two Kingdoms distinction (God's left-hand kingdom of civil governance/temporal authority - in THIS life - and HIS right-hand kingdom of heaven, expressed on earth, in the Church), read Luther's 1523 treatise on "The Christian & temporal authority; to what extent should it be obeyed?"

I've long wanted to write a book on this treatise, and it's influence on western jurisprudence and thought. I believe one can draw a clear and distinct line from the U.S. Constitution, back through British Common Law of 1681, to Luther's thoughts here on self defense, capital punishment, Just war theory, & whether a Christian can serve as a policeman, soldier, or hangman even, if called upon.

You can read the treatise on-line here (and it's not as long as it sounds!).

https://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/11/secular-authority-to-what-extent-it.html

[Grouchy Bear]

I doubt anyone is going to change your mind, especially when your view point is based on emotion, and not biblical.

[justMike]

Self defense of community and society is not murder, and capital punishment is self defense.

War is not murder.

I understand your first statement,..but, I think this only truly applies on the village level of 'community'. Once you get to State level, IMO the death penalty has a very high likelihood of becoming 'political' action / activity.
That it becomes political is why I oppose it. The 'Divine Right Of Kings' taking the power of life and death reserved to God. Kings and the like, the powerful do these things because they can and do it to instill fear and solidify political control.
The backing by God thing is just an intellectual excuse / exercise IMO.


Given the statement above, how is War anything other than mass murder? Sure, we have to make up some 'justifications' for doing the abhorrent.
Ultimately all sides (usually) see God as on their side, and consequently 'justified' in the mass slaughter that is not murder. A distinction without a real difference in practical terms.

At least orthodox Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses are consistent on the peace and love demonstrated by Jesus.

For the following reasons, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t go to war:

Obedience to God. The Bible says that God’s servants would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.”—Isaiah 2:4.

Obedience to Jesus. The apostle Peter was told by Jesus: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52) Jesus thus showed that his followers would not take up weapons of warfare.

Jesus’ disciples obey his command to be “no part of the world” by remaining strictly neutral in political matters. (John 17:16) They do not protest against military actions or interfere with those who choose to serve in the armed forces.

Love for others. Jesus commanded his disciples to “love one another.” (John 13:34, 35) They would thus form an international brotherhood in which no one would ever wage war against his brother or sister.—1 John 3:10-12.

The example of early Christians. The Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing those practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.”
Likewise, German theologian Peter Meinhold said of those early disciples of Jesus: “Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.”

That's what's so fun about The Bible, you get to slice it any way you want it to go. Lawyers must love that. Wonder how many Lawyers / Pharisees there are in Heaven?

[The War Wagon]

I understand your first statement,..but, I think this only truly applies on the village level of 'community'. Once you get to State level, IMO the death penalty has a very high likelihood of becoming 'political' action / activity.
That it becomes political is why I oppose it. The 'Divine Right Of Kings' taking the power of life and death reserved to God. Kings and the like, the powerful do these things because they can and do it to instill fear and solidify political control.
The backing by God thing is just an intellectual excuse / exercise IMO.

Not sure what translation you're reading, but again, check Romans 13. You might want to read up on how the early Church dealt with being pariahs in the Roman Empire, and yet still supported the rule of law. Consider also St. Peter's first epistle, and suffering injustice willingly for the sake of the faith - it's been the primary set of epistle readings from the three-year lectionary this Easter season.

At least orthodox Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses are consistent on the peace and love demonstrated by Jesus.

A bit simplistic, perhaps, but Jesus never advocates pacifism, FYI.




Which brings me to my next point: why would a pacifist Christian, be part of a firearms board?

[theLBC]

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
—Matthew 10:34–37

[Barang]

Genesis 9:6 (NIV)
Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Exodus 21:12 (NIV)
Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.

Exodus 21:22-23

[Wordupmybrotha]

Below is a start.

Genesis 9:6 (NIV)
Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Exodus 21:12 (NIV)
Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.

Exodus 21:22-23

+1

[Wordupmybrotha]

How does one square being Christian and also pro-capital punishment?

Easy. God condones that form of punishment.

Genesis 9:6 (NIV)
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind."

Notice, he said, "by humans shall their blood be shed." He gave humans the authority to execute another human - lawfully.

I have some issues with handing authority over to the state -a state I don’t trust, and don’t feel often represents the people- to execute human beings.

That's a legitimate reason. Not choosing capital punishment is fine.

To murder someone...to decide death for someone else...isn’t that just trying to take and usurp God’s power?

No, as stated by Genesis 9:6.

And aren’t we all complicit or culpable when our -allegedly- democratic institution murders someone? And we don’t stand or speak against it?

No, some things are beyond our control. God will dispense justice in the afterlife.

And yes, I’m using the word murder intentionally. I believe the only justification for killing someone else is defense of self, or defense of the innocent.

Nope, it's allowed as part of the justice system.

But when the state executes someone -no matter how heinous and wicked they are, or how evil their future deeds MIGHT be- in that moment, they pose no imminent danger to anyone. State sponsored execution is not self-defense- It’s punishment.

Again, doesn't have to be self-defense. That form of punishment was allowed.

And I think that type of punishment is God’s and only God’s. No man, and certainly no institution, should seek to use that power.

God instituted government and gave it authority to dispense justice on earth. Whatever shortcomings will be rectified in the afterlife.
John 19:11
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”

Not to mention, some data shows our track record isn’t great and that we accidentally murder innocent people all the time via capital punishment. That poses a bit of a problem in and of itself, doesn’t it?

That's a legitimate reason to be against capital punishment. It's your choice.

Even if we set that aside that huge, glaring issue, and assume everyone who the state murders was indeed guilty of their crimes...I think we still have an enormous problem.

Again, not an enormous problem. That form of punishment has been authorized.

[Wordupmybrotha]

Christ has some things to say

[jarhead714]

Ask a Jesuit priest. Masters of capital punishment.

[Rusty Bolts]

Society has an obligation to protect the members of that society. Christianity expects that we love our neighbors and forgive those who wrong us. There is not question what the right answer is when it comes to a rabid dog. You kill it. This is done to protect society. It not done out of hate or fear, in fact, it is often a mercy to the animal. When it comes to animals wearing the skin of a man, the same thing applies. Society must protect society. Imprisonment is a punishment imposed with the hope that the imprisoned will pay his debt and become an upstanding member of society again. Never mind that it very rarely works out that way. We continue to hope. But those man-shaped animal will never become anything other than a danger and must be put down. Just like with the rabid dog, we must protect society and put the animal down. It must not be done out of hate or fear, but with forgiveness. And all possible haste. And who but the members of society, through the due process of the courts, should make the decision? BTW, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is NOT a Christian value. That is purely Old Testament and was superseded by the teachings of Christ. You know, "turn the other cheek?"

Rusty Bolts

[Sailormilan2]

Good post.

Let me post this, from the Old Testament. God speaking to Noah and effectively turning punishment for crimes over to man.

Gen 9:5
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.