Sola scriptura

[RAMCLAP]

A teaching does not become dogmatic unless it was something always believed by the faithful. The immaculate conception is another good example of this as well.

I think there may be some confusion about purgatory. It has nothing to do with salvation. Again, you might want to read something written by a Catholic about the Catholic faith.

No. Actually the entire Reformation is based off of what Johan Tetzel was teaching about Purgatory. The Pope supported Him and excommunicated Luther. There is no getting around it.

[DTENG]

Some good posts here, but I would like to return to my original post of sola scriptura and the Bible's support for it. Many of these posts rely on this teaching.

One problem with sola scriptura is the canon of the New Testament. There is no "inspired table of contents" in Scripture that tells us which books belong and which ones don't. That information comes to us from outside Scripture. How do you resolve this issue?

[colossians323]

A teaching does not become dogmatic unless it was something always believed by the faithful. The immaculate conception is another good example of this as well.

I think there may be some confusion about purgatory. It has nothing to do with salvation. Again, you might want to read something written by a Catholic about the Catholic faith.

just a word here. The Catholic faith is the Christian faith, and the christian faith is that of anyone who has accepted the free gift and bears fruit. Denomination is not the Christian Faith, Catholicism is but a denomination, but Belief and the faith in the living God is what makes up the Bride of Christ.

Are Catholics Christians first, or Catholic first?

[billvau]

just a word here. The Catholic faith is the Christian faith, and the christian faith is that of anyone who has accepted the free gift and bears fruit. Denomination is not the Christian Faith, Catholicism is but a denomination, but Belief and the faith in the living God is what makes up the Bride of Christ.

Are Catholics Christians first, or Catholic first?

Since you used "Catholic" with a capital "C," I'm assuming that you consider those of the Roman Catholic Church to be Christian.

Anyone who believes the Roman Catholic doctrine about salvation is not Christian because their doctrine is that you have to be baptized first - that infuses the faith, etc. And, if you are in the RCC and truly saved, you will leave because it is a false religion that puts church first, and condemns all those who believe in salvation by faith alone anathema! So, the "Catholic faith" is NOT the Christian faith.

I was born/raised Catholic and saved out of that religion into Christ. I've had to do a lot of explaining / differentiating since!

Pastor Bill

[colossians323]

Since you used "Catholic" with a capital "C," I'm assuming that you consider those of the Roman Catholic Church to be Christian.

Anyone who believes the Roman Catholic doctrine about salvation is not Christian because their doctrine is that you have to be baptized first - that infuses the faith, etc. And, if you are in the RCC and truly saved, you will leave because it is a false religion that puts church first, and condemns all those who believe in salvation by faith alone anathema! So, the "Catholic faith" is NOT the Christian faith.

I was born/raised Catholic and saved out of that religion into Christ. I've had to do a lot of explaining / differentiating since!

Pastor Bill

I think I have made my point clear. The church is not made up of denominations. The church is made up of individual believers. Do you believe that the church is made up of denominations or those individuals who commit to historic Christian doctrine?

[billvau]

I think I have made my point clear. The church is not made up of denominations. The church is made up of individual believers. Do you believe that the church is made up of denominations or those individuals who commit to historic Christian doctrine?

I am NOT a denomination person. ugh.

However, the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is not a "denomination" of Christianity. They are a non-believing religion -clearly seen in their doctrine and teaching. A Christian "denomination" has Christian doctrine, whether or not the current set of churches are practicing that doctrine. The Catholic church simply does NOT have Christian doctrine.

And, at the Council of Trent, the RCC clearly pronounced Biblical Christians as "anathema" - we're going to hell!

https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

In addition, the RCC puts the church as greater authority than the Bible. They say that they created the Bible! So, you have to listen to the church over the Bible.

I could go on and on. But, the bottom line is that the RCC is not a Christian denomination. They are not "Christian." So, if God saves someone who is currently in the RCC, they will move OUT of the RCC to a Christian church per Phil. 1:6. You cannot be sanctified in a non-Christian church.

Pastor Bill

[colossians323]

I am NOT a denomination person. ugh.

However, the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is not a "denomination" of Christianity. They are a non-believing religion -clearly seen in their doctrine and teaching. A Christian "denomination" has Christian doctrine, whether or not the current set of churches are practicing that doctrine. The Catholic church simply does NOT have Christian doctrine.

And, at the Council of Trent, the RCC clearly pronounced Biblical Christians as "anathema" - we're going to hell!

https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

In addition, the RCC puts the church as greater authority than the Bible. They say that they created the Bible! So, you have to listen to the church over the Bible.

I could go on and on. But, the bottom line is that the RCC is not a Christian denomination. They are not "Christian." So, if God saves someone who is currently in the RCC, they will move OUT of the RCC to a Christian church per Phil. 1:6. You cannot be sanctified in a non-Christian church.

Pastor Bill

Never read that before. Do they really believe what was written in the council of Trent?

As I was reading it, it was as if one was watching the pharisees in action

[billvau]

Never read that before. Do they really believe what was written in the council of Trent?

As I was reading it, it was as if one was watching the pharisees in action

The church definitely believes it, but I doubt the average person in the RCC knows it - and the church likes it that way because even though their doctrine of salvation is FALSE, they make the differences subtle so that the average RCC'r thinks they believe the same as other "Christians."

The Council of Trent was in response to the Luther and the Reformation (And, it's the 500 yr anniversary of the Reformation this week!).

The RCC wants you following the RCC, not Christ. I have RCC friends doing good works for indulgences, etc. to minimize their time in "purgatory!" (which does not exist). These RCC friends believe I'm anathema and going to hell!

The easiest religions to differentiate from Christianity are those 100% different in theology - e.g. Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Then, it gets harder with religions like Islam because even though it started as a false religion from the sin of Abraham, people get confused and claim we have the same God (wrong). Then, it gets hardest with a religion like the Roman Catholic Church because they use mostly the same Bible (they added books in response to the Reformation!), and use the same words (Jesus Christ, etc.), BUT they draw a different, man-made, works-based, conclusion. Oh, but they sound SO similar that people think we are all "Christians" with them.

A well-known pastor who ministers to Catholics, because so many live around his church, once said that this similarity of terms is like 80,000 parts flying in close formation, but it's not a plane because they purposefully don't put the parts together right, and thereby keep people damned to hell.

Pastor Bill

[Egerland]

Sola Scripture means only that the Bible is the supreme authority on doctrine and practice, but allows that other forms of authority may govern Christian life and practice, including presumably tradition and maybe even the Bishop of Rome.

These are all tough questions that have been wrestled with by folks much smarter than me (the Church fathers, Luther, et al). However, I am fairly confident that the early church was pretty much what we were intended to pattern our worship upon. As the medieval church strayed far from this early model, Luther came along to reform it. The Ur-Lutherans were confident that they had "added nothing new and taken away nothing that was originally there." So to me, liturgically sound worship, based on the Book of Concord, in a congregation governed by good order (supervised by a competent bishop and a responsible national church body) is the way to go.

That said, the Roman Catholic church of today is not the same church that Luther was unhappy with. They have added some problematic new dogma, but almost all the abuses he attacked have been done away with.

[DTENG]

Egerland, that sounds more like Prima Scriptura than Sola Scriptura.

So, the defense for Sola Scriptura from others has evolved into an attack of the Roman Catholic Church. Not surprising. Unfortunately, it is like claiming the Democratic Party is right by saying how bad the Republicans are.

A few have quoted some verses from the Bible they claim "imply" Sola Scriptura. Personally, I don't see it. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that it is the sole infallible source of Christian truth. As a matter of fact, 1 Tim 3:15 says the opposite. Additionally, nowhere in the Bible does it list which books are contained in the Bible, so again Sola Scriptura fails.

Sola Scriptura is an invention of man, not Christ.

[billvau]

So, the defense for Sola Scriptura from others has evolved into an attack of the Roman Catholic Church. Not surprising. Unfortunately, it is like claiming the Democratic Party is right by saying how bad the Republicans are.

Not an attack. Just a rational discussion of RCC doctrine vs. Biblical doctrine. The RCC, by its own doctrine, is not a "Christian" church as Christianity is first named in the Bible (Acts 11:26) and defined in the Bible (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Why do you try to turn these comments into a seeming attack? Are you unable to respond with doctrine (objective, external doctrine) that supports your position?

So, if you were to die today and stood before God, and He asked "Why should I let you into My heaven?," how would you answer?

Pastor Bill

[Rizzo]

The RCC, by its own doctrine, is not a "Christian" church as Christianity is first named in the Bible (Acts 11:26) and defined in the Bible (Ephesians 2:8-10).

What?
So Catholics are not Christians?......is that what you are saying?
That is offensive and Wrong!

[billvau]

What?
So Catholics are not Christians?......is that what you are saying?
That is offensive and Wrong!

No, sorry, not if you stick to the Biblical definition of a Christian being saved by faith alone, grace alone, through Christ, apart from any works (baptism included) (Eph. 2:8-9).

And, to reinforce this, the Catholics condemn anyone who says that they are saved as I just described (I posted the link above to the relevant canons of the Council of Trent that proclaim us "anathema.").

The RCC is very careful to call themselves "Catholics" and not "Christians," because they know the difference and know their anathemas.

Pastor Bill

[Rizzo]

No, sorry, not if you stick to the Biblical definition of a Christian being saved by faith alone, grace alone, through Christ, apart from any works (baptism included) (Eph. 2:8-9).

And, to reinforce this, the Catholics condemn anyone who says that they are saved as I just described (I posted the link above to the relevant canons of the Council of Trent that proclaim us "anathema.").

The RCC is very careful to call themselves "Catholics" and not "Christians," because they know the difference and know their anathemas.

Pastor Bill

Wow Bill, you are "out there" aren't you.
Maybe you should go to a Catholic Mass on Sunday and check it out personally rather than parroting something you read somewhere.

You would find that Jesus and his teachings are the core to their beliefs.
The Last Supper is honored and celebrated by the Mass.
"Do this in memory of me" is what Jesus said.
Do you do that in your Sunday service?

Those that believe in Jesus and try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings are Christians. That about as simple as it gets.

Catholics are Christian Bill, wake up!

[billvau]

Wow Bill, you are "out there" aren't you.
Maybe you should go to a Catholic Mass on Sunday and check it out personally rather than parroting something you read somewhere.

You would find that Jesus and his teachings are the core to their beliefs.
The Last Supper is honored and celebrated by the Mass.
"Do this in memory of me" is what Jesus said.
Do you do that in your Sunday service?

Those that believe in Jesus and try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings are Christians. That about as simple as it gets.

Catholics are Christian Bill, wake up!